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Knowledge Pool Scenarios » Post: Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

Sept. 10, 2014 03:48:28 PM

Benjamin McDole
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

USA - Southeast

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

Good afternoon everyone!
Welcome back to another new edition of Knowledge Pool. This week's scenario is Silver, which means that while we love for judges who are L2 and up to participate, we politely ask that you wait a day or so for others to have a crack at the question. As always a quick reminder, please do not alter the scenario in the comments (even small changes can mean big things for the solution). Without further comment, this week's scenario!

During day 2 of a Grand Prix, while playing against Naomi, Ashton plays his land for turn, a Temple of Abandon. Ashton picks up the top card, looks at it, sets it back down on the table. Ashton thinks, and then picks up the card and puts it into his hand. Naomi immediately calls for a judge. What is the most appropriate infraction, penalty, and any additional fix?

As always remember that you can find our scenarios on the Knowledge Pool blog as well, located here:
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2014/09/10/temple-of-beats-the-bad-ones/

Sept. 10, 2014 04:04:43 PM

Marc DeArmond
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northwest

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

This seems to be a pretty cut and dry GPE - DEC, game loss. Ashton scryed but put the card into his hand rather than onto the top or bottom of his library. There wasn't another GPE or CPV before this and there's no indication of Naomi approving of the card draw so it is definitely DEC. It's pretty similar to example C given in the IPG. “C. A player draws for his turn, and then draws again for his turn a few moments later.” No rewind, do not pass go, game is over. Onto game 2, sideboarding is fine.

Sept. 10, 2014 04:05:37 PM

Guilherme Lemos
Judge (Uncertified)

Brazil

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

I think it's a simple Game Play Error — Drawing Extra Cards, Game loss for Ashton and move on.
In this case we don't know what card was draw since it's already mixed with his hand, we can't downgrade the penalty.

Sept. 10, 2014 04:13:51 PM

Tristan Killeen
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

This looks like a textbook case of Drawing Extra Cards. There was no indication that anything had gone wrong until the card went into the hand, and it was not a card that both players could identify. I'd issue Ashton a Game Loss for Drawing Extra Cards, and instruct the players to continue their match unless Naomi had already won a game.

Sept. 10, 2014 05:17:24 PM

Sal Cortez
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

USA - Southwest

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

I think this is a simple GPE - GRV - Warning for incorrectly resolving a spell. I would have the player randomly put a card on the top of his library.

That's a tough one though, would you put the card on top or bottom? I think the player clearly wanted the card to go on top, but brainfarted and put it in his hand instead. Yeah, I think I'd put it on top.

EDIT: Looking back at the other responses, I disagree; this is not DEC. If he had put the card strait from the library to his hand, then yes. But he started resolving the Scry, IE he looked at the card. As trifle as that sounds, it makes all the difference.

Edited Sal Cortez (Sept. 10, 2014 05:21:11 PM)

Sept. 10, 2014 05:18:10 PM

Victor Hugo Souza
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

Brazil

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

Ashton made a Game Play Error - Drawing Extra Cards.
Because it is a Professional Rel event is assigned a Game Loss to Ashton. As it isn’t possible to identify the drawn card, it is not possible a reduction of penalty. If Naomi hadn't already won a game, Ashton chooses whether to play or draw in the next game.

Edited Victor Hugo Souza (Sept. 10, 2014 05:20:49 PM)

Sept. 10, 2014 05:33:29 PM

Eli Meyer
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

Without having read other responses: this seems like a straight-up Drawing Extra Cards. Assuming that the top card wasn't revealed and wasn't the only card in Ashton's hand, it's a Game Loss. I don't see any mitigating factors here.

Sept. 10, 2014 06:00:39 PM

István Fejér
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

This to me seems like a straightforward GPE – Drawing Extra Cards with a Game Loss for Ashton. No GPE or CPV occurred prior to the infraction, though one might argue that the scry was incorrectly resolved. But if that was the case, putting (a dead) Nissa’s Chosen in your hand instead of the bottom of the library would be the same as well, and that is a clear example of DEC in the IPG. Unless I’m missing something, this is a very clear scenario.

Sept. 10, 2014 06:33:46 PM

Talin Salway
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

Ashton has put a card in his hand when he should not have, and this was the first error he made. Unfortunately for Ashton, this is a pretty straightforward GPE - DEC, with a Game Loss.

Naomi caught the error right away, and committed no infraction.

I don't believe there's any difference from the fact that this event was being run at Professional REL instead of Competitive, except possibly for a bit more scrutiny when investigating the situation.

Sept. 10, 2014 08:14:00 PM

Matheus Martins Vieira
Judge (Level 1 (Judge Academy))

Brazil

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

I don't know a lot of IPG since I didn't went much far in it. I will start to read and learn it soon, but from where I know, it's a Drawing Extra Cards. Since he took the card and put it into his hand (even putting it into the table first) he is going to get a Game Loss. I would like to know something though: if the card was know to all players, the penalty could be downgraded and the situation rewinded?

Sept. 10, 2014 08:33:35 PM

Daniel Chew
Judge (Level 1 (International Judge Program))

Southeast Asia

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

I would reckon it was a GRV - DEC, definitely a game loss. Especially when it's running professional.

Sept. 11, 2014 02:09:39 AM

Loïc Launois
Judge (Uncertified)

BeNeLux

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

I think its GRV-DEC , unless its the only card in the hand of Ashton of the card was already know by all players.In that case, downgrade.

But i would make an investigation to be sure its was not a try to cheat (put the card in his hand after waiting a moment)

Sept. 11, 2014 04:31:59 AM

Sander Baars
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

From the outset this is a very straightforward GPE-DEC, which means a game loss for Ashton. Day 2 of a Grand Prix is run at Professional REL.

As it is a scry effect and the card was set aside before it was taken into the hand, you could investigate the situation as well. If we go from the premise that as Judges we try to believe that the player is good and not trying to cheat, I could see some potential for downgrading after discussing this with the Head Judge of the event if the results of the investigation turn out to be that there was no bad intention.

In that case you could take a random card from the hand and put it on top of the library. This is all at the discretion of the Judges involved and I am just pointing this out as additional perspective to the situation.

Sept. 11, 2014 04:44:45 AM

Milan Majerčík
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper

Europe - Central

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

I definitely agree with the vast majority of respondents on the DEC -> Game Loss categorization. This scenario is a common example for the difference between Game Rule Violation and Drawing Extra Cards. Even though, the extra card was drawn as part of incorrectly executing a scry (which could seem like a GRV), this must be evaluated as DEC. The first moment when something went wrong was the moment when Ashton put the card into his hand. There was no way how Naomi could prevent that and interrupt it.

Sept. 11, 2014 06:33:26 AM

Olivier Jansen
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Northeast

Temple of Beats, the bad ones - SILVER

I can't see any other way than Olivier Jansen - LastName, Ashton - GPE-DEC - Game loss - Played temple of Abandon, scried, accidentally put the card into hand.

Usual procedure upon giving a game loss, person that got the loss can choose to play or draw in the next game, since part of the game was played sideboards can be used.

No penalty to Naomi