Welcome, judges to this latest installment of the Knowledge Pool. This week we have a Silver scenario, so we'll need L2+ judges to contain their excitement until Friday. L1s and judge candidates, have at it!

Here are your blog post and scenario!

Anna and Nadine are several turns into their game at a local Legacy GPT. Anna casts Swords to Plowshares targeting Nadine's Deathrite Shaman, which she cast on her previous turn. Nadine gains 1 life, and Anna passes the turn. Nadine untaps and Anna sees that Nadine put the Shaman in her graveyard instead of exiling it. She then notices that not only is that one in the graveyard, but the Shaman that she exiled way back on turn 1 is in the graveyard too. Anna raises her hand and calls you to the table.

What do you do?

Edited Joshua Feingold (Oct. 16, 2014 04:19:47 AM)

First I'd want to confirm that both shaman were hit by the spell swords to plowshares and should be exiled. Assuming that is the case we have 2 separate GRVs to apply to each player, one for each swords to plowshares. Due to a minimal amount of disruption both shaman will be exiled, per the most recent IPG update.

Each player receives two warnings recorded for their GRVs, and a reminder to play more carefully.

Edited Chris Wendelboe (Oct. 16, 2014 03:58:12 AM)

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

Anna casts Swords to Plowshares targeting Nadine's Deathrite Shaman, which she cast on her previous turn… Nadine untaps and sees that Anna put the Shaman in her graveyard instead of exiling it.

I think there's some issues with pronouns and who is doing what here. Anna casts Swords on Nadine's Deathrite, then Nadine notices that Anna put the Shaman in her graveyard? Who is “her,” and why is Anna moving Nadine's creatures around?

Assuming that's just a typo though, and that the situation is that we have two Swords that have been cast and in both cases the card was put into the graveyard instead of exiled, we have two distinct sets of double GRVs. Since the two sets of infractions don't have the same “root cause,” we apply both sets of penalties, instead of only applying the most severe. Both players will receive 2 GRV warnings for incorrectly resolving Swords to Plowshares and should be encouraged to play more carefully, especially since they are both in the situation that their next GRV Warning will be upgraded to a Game Loss.

For the most recent instance, I think it's easily not too disruptive to the game state to apply the partial fix of putting the Deathrite Shaman in the correct zone (exile). For the one that occured on Turn 1, that would take an evaluation of the current game situation, but assuming there haven't been any major graveyard interactions involving the Deathrite Shaman I would be inclined to move that one to the correct zone as well.

I agree with you, Christopher, but I would not give two Warnings to each player. Both errors are basically the same. There is also a paragraph in IPG mentioning this situation:

Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied. If the first penalty would cause the second one to be inapplicable for the round (such as a Game Loss issued along with a Match Loss), the more severe penalty is issued first, followed by the less severe penalty in the next round.

Originally posted by Chuck Pierce:

I think there's some issues with pronouns and who is doing what here.

Yup. We missed that. The initial post has been updated to correct the confusion.

Anna cast both copies of Swords to Plowshares. Nadine controlled and owns both Deathrite Shamans.

Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:

I agree with you, Christopher, but I would not give two Warnings to each player. Both errors are basically the same. There is also a paragraph in IPG mentioning this situation:

Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied. If the first penalty would cause the second one to be inapplicable for the round (such as a Game Loss issued along with a Match Loss), the more severe penalty is issued first, followed by the less severe penalty in the next round.

I believe that's for a case where multiple infractions stem from the same acrion. For example: I cast a God's Willing, tap a swamp to pay, it resolves and I scry. Two penalties stem from the same illegal play.

My feeling is that, for each instance, it is GRV for Anna and GRV for Nadine.

If a player takes an action called for by an effect controlled by his or her opponent, but does it incorrectly, both players receive a Game Play Error – Game Rule Violation.

Well, I think we could use some definition of what is exactly meant as “the same root cause”. IPG itself is not very specific.

I agree that the most obvious use for it is in a situation you have mentioned. In my reasoning, I got inspired by the Annotated IPG which says:

Originally posted by Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied.:

This covers the case where judges come up to a table and find multiple errors. In many cases the errors are separate; like doing a deck check and finding marked cards and a 59 card deck. Another example is when a judge finds a player has cast a creature with the wrong mana and resolved its ETB trigger incorrectly, and then when the incorrect trigger is discovered, the players realize the creature couldn’t even have been cast. In both examples there are two infractions, that do not have the same root case, and therefore both should be applied. However, sometimes multiple errors share the same root cause - such as players thinking Heroic triggers off abilities, and repeatedly using equipment to trigger Heroic. In that case, the root cause is the same, making it one infraction. The line about “only the more severe one is applied” is a bit misleading, because 99 times out of 100, the multiple penalties will be of the same type, and therefore have the same level of severity. But in case it ever does happen, the judge will know what to do.

Originally posted by Milan Majerčík:

Well, I think we could use some definition of what is exactly meant as “the same root cause”. IPG itself is not very specific.

I agree that the most obvious use for it is in a situation you have mentioned. In my reasoning, I got inspired by the Annotated IPG which says:

Separate infractions committed or discovered at the same time are treated as separate penalties, though if the root cause is the same, only the more severe one is applied.
This covers the case where judges come up to a table and find multiple errors. In many cases the errors are separate; like doing a deck check and finding marked cards and a 59 card deck. Another example is when a judge finds a player has cast a creature with the wrong mana and resolved its ETB trigger incorrectly, and then when the incorrect trigger is discovered, the players realize the creature couldn’t even have been cast. In both examples there are two infractions, that do not have the same root case, and therefore both should be applied. However, sometimes multiple errors share the same root cause - such as players thinking Heroic triggers off abilities, and repeatedly using equipment to trigger Heroic. In that case, the root cause is the same, making it one infraction. The line about “only the more severe one is applied” is a bit misleading, because 99 times out of 100, the multiple penalties will be of the same type, and therefore have the same level of severity. But in case it ever does happen, the judge will know what to do.

That's a very good point but gives no explanation as to the time frame. If it happens on the same turn for sure. If it happens on different turns is not so clear.

I would say double GRV twice. Though the scenario doesn't explicitly say what exiled the first Shaman (and I know we shouldn't be adding things to it), assuming it was another StP, there are two separate infractions by different root causes. So both players will receive two GRVs, and we exile the two Shamans as per IPG partial fix.

Subject: Elfalfa - SILVER (Knowledge Pool Scenarios)
From: forum-13291-06f4@apps.magicjudges.org
To: fejer.istvan@outlook.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 17:19:17 +0000

Welcome, judges to this latest installment of the Knowledge Pool. This
week we have a Silver scenario, so we'll need L2+ judges to contain
their excitement until Friday. L1s and judge candidates, have at
it!

Here are your blog
post and scenario!

Anna and Nadine are several turns into
their game at a local Legacy GPT. Anna casts Swords to
Plowshares targeting Nadine's Deathrite Shaman, which
she cast on her previous turn. Nadine gains 1 life, and Anna passes
the turn. Nadine untaps and sees that Anna put the Shaman in her
graveyard instead of exiling it. She then notices that not only is
that one in the graveyard, but the Shaman that she exiled way back on
turn 1 is in the graveyard too. Anna raises her hand and calls you to
the table.

What do you
do?

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Both players here have committed two Game Rules Violations. There's a discussion to be had about whether or not the “root cause is the same,” but I think that it is, so I'm comfortable only issuing one GRV each, with the penalty being a warning.

Now for the fix. IPG section 2.5 gives us: “If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.” As long as the game state hasn't been impacted by Deathrites being in the graveyard, I would instruct Anna to put both into exile.

Infraction: 2 double GRVs.

Official remedy: Since it was within a turn of catching the error, the most recent DRS moves to exile. However, since it is not within a turn of the other DRS, it will stay in the graveyard.

Deviation (which I would likely apply, or request the HJ to apply in the event that I was not the HJ): Put both DRSes into exile. I don't think exiling both DRSes would impact the flow of the game in a significant way, so leaving the game state broken seems to serve very little purpose. Also covers against possible cheating by Nadine (even if we don't believe Nadine is cheating, so we can't DQ her, this fix leaves us safer than sorrier).

EDIT: Missed the “root cause is the same” clause in the intro to IPG. Given that, I would only issue 1 double GRV, the common root cause being “Nadine doesn't know what StP does”.

Edited Lyle Waldman (Oct. 16, 2014 05:24:07 AM)

First of all, confirm with both players that both Deathrite Shamans were exiled due to Swords to Plowshares. If that is correct then apply the fix per the IPG of moving both of the cards into the correct zones.
For the infraction, this is an instance of a double GRV for both players. My personal opinion is that because it is the same rule and due to the same card that caused the error there is no need to give two instances of either GRVs to both players, fix the card locations, and continue play.

Infraction would be double GRV for both.

For the fix, since it would cause minimal disturbance to the game, I would have Anna go ahead and move both DRS to exile.

I would follow that up with a kind reminder to play more carefully.

Assuming both players agree that both cards were supposed to be exiled and they went to the graveyard instead, I would apply the GRV partial fix and exile them both. It's a GRV for Anna and a GRV for Nadine, warning for each.

I feel like I really want to apply the double penalty here because the “root cause” of the issue is doesn't feel the same. The “root cause” is incorrect resolution of two separate spells at two separate times. I feel that these two are separate events in which the same issue took place however, according to the Annotated IPG, this means share the same root cause. In spite of really wanting to give a double GRV, I can't seem to justify it with policy.

Edited Marc DeArmond (Oct. 16, 2014 05:56:43 AM)