A player presented his deck to his opponent. When the opponent began to shuffle the deck (normally, based on my observation), the player told him: “Be gentle with my cards. They are not double-sleeved. Shuffle carefully please.” I was near the table at the time and both players expected me to handle this somehow.

The opponent, in reaction to this request by the player, began to shuffle much more slowly and carefully, to a point where he randomized it much less.

That was the first time I saw this situation.
I wonder what I should have done. I can't stand by the match the entire round to shuffle instead of the opponent. Plus, I believe my shuffling is actually more careless than what the opponent was doing. I guess the player could be using this to goad his opponent to only cut the deck and not shuffle it during the games and at the beginning of games 2 and 3 which might enable him to cheat by manipulating deck better. But I did not investigate.

Did something like this happen to anyone else?

If both players are happy with how the shuffling player is shuffling after being asked to be careful is there a problem?

It's probably just what it was supposed to be: a player worried about his investment (although have to say, having a +$1000 deck without Perfect Size sleeves and expecting everybody not to mash-shuffle incorrectly once or twice per tournament… good luck man!!).

The player's concern is valid. In this case (as in most), I feel the best approach is educational. Talk about better practices for protecting cards, and talk about shuffling techniques that are easy on the cards yet still sufficiently randomize.

A Warning for Insufficient Shuffling, even if it should apply, should not be the focus here. Remember, both players have concerns we need to address before applying any sort of penalty.

Originally posted by Gareth Tanner:

The problem is that the shuffling player does not know how to shuffle more carefully and so just resorts to cutting the opponent's deck for fear that he would damage the cards. The shuffling player would not be happy about this.

I know this seems a bit inconsiderate, but it remains my stance: don't play with cards you don't want shuffled.

If the opponent is really aggressive with shuffling, a Judge could encourage him to be more respectful of others' property, and maybe help him learn to shuffle more gently.

My worry is that a player might say that to discourage an opponent from shuffling enough to undo some mana weave or other maniplulation.

d:^D

Originally posted by Petr Hudeček:

began to shuffle much more slowly and carefully, to a point where he randomized it much less.

This part lead me to believe the player was just being slower with the style of shuffling and reducing the chance of damage while shuffling. Have I misunderstood?

Yonatan Kamensky
A Warning for Insufficient Shuffling, even if it should apply

Can this ever be Insufficient Shuffling if it's the opponent shuffling?

Originally posted by Gareth Tanner:

Can this ever be Insufficient Shuffling if it's the opponent shuffling?

By definition, no. However, I imagine a player who is so concerned about how their opponent shuffles is worth watching.

I'll echo Scott here. Although diplomacy leads me to educate fairly, ultimately it's not up to a player to decide how their opponent shuffles. Directing them to a sales booth to purchase perfect fits is a good idea.

I think the key here to me is diplomatic education. I'd explain that I understand the concerns of the player asking for care. However, I would remind both players that we require you to shuffle your opponent's deck. Asking as he does could lead to his opp not shuffling at all. If the player feels the cards are so valuable he should double sleeve. If you play in a tournament you need to expect players to shuffle your cards. If you feel they are shuffling in a way not reasonable to expect, call a judge.

I agree with all the above sentiment about enough shuffling- but if a player is honestly concerned about how an opponent shuffles, they can also request a judge to shuffle their deck (with our discretion).

I think there are some genuine cases of which some players are relatively rough at handling cards during shuffling.
If the player is truly uncomfortable with his opponent shuffling his/her deck, I think it would be best to call a judge to shuffle on their opponent's behalf.
That would prevent any unhappiness from arising due to cards being damaged.

I'm not sure I like the solution where the Judge ends up shuffling the deck. That takes time and attention away from other duties, several times a match and multiple times through the day. If someone is being overly aggressive - then I guess I get that as a solution. (Sidebar: I recently played against someone in a draft who simple could not control the strength of his hands due to a lifetime of manual labor as it was explained to me - his cards had a consistent and noticeable curve by the 3rd round). But I would think that ‘normal’ shuffling should be fine in all cases.

I would prefer to see the option to have a Judge shuffle only in cases where there is an actual disability of some kind (a cast or some other diagnosed issue).

I see no problem at all. If I play a pimped out deck with many foils and my opponent shuffles like a mad man, damaging a card like for example a foil Dark Confidant(happened to a friend of mine, and trust me, he was really mad) I can understand that player why he says that. I don't get how you think why he should say that to discourage his opponent to shuffle less. Damaging cards has nothing to do with randomisation.

And that can happen even with perfect size sleeves. A card can still be bent with those!

There are a lot of problems with judges shuffling for players just because they've asked us to (i.e. if there is no medical reason or special situation):

• It's poor use of judge resources (there are generally more important things to be doing)
  
• It's not scalable. If it's an event where many players have valuable decks, and they see that we're willing to acommodate such a request, we could soon have a lot of those requests.
  
• If there is to be a lot of shuffling (fetch lands), we're either stationing a judge near the match (poor use of judges) or the player is calling a judge for each shuffle, wasting play time (or, worse, getting a time extension for this).
  
• Some judges aren't particularly good at shuffling anyway! They may well be just as likely to damage the cards as the opponent. And it's a bit awkward if the player asks for a judge to shuffle to “protect” their cards, and then the judge bends them…
  

The player just asking the opponent to take care should be sufficient. If the opponent is for some reason unable to do so, then that's a (presumably medical) rare special case. If the opponent is intentionally shuffling in such a way as to damage cards, that's a whole different issue.

Magic cards are, first and foremost, for playing games of Magic. Part of those games is shuffling, and letting other people shuffle. If your cards are so valuable that you're uncomfortable with that, you should consider playing with less valuable versions of those cards.


I think Scott already gave the conclusive word on this issue:

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

don't play with cards you don't want shuffled.

Edited James Winward-Stuart (June 9, 2015 05:34:59 AM)

Shuffling doesnt have anything to do with damaging cards.