Hello my friends! Welcome back to the Knowledge Pool! This week's scenario is Silver, so we would like to ask L2+ judges to wait until Saturday to post their ideas and suggestions.

The blog post for this senario can be found here

You are the head and only judge for a standard PPTQ. Adam is playing against Norbert. Norbert controls a Mogis, God of Slaughter. Adam controls an Orchard Spirit and an Aven Battle Priest. Adam starts his turn saying “Untap, Upkeep, Draw" and draws his card for turn, he then slams Abzan Advantage on the table saying, “Target you!” to Norbert. Norbert then says, “Hold on, are you sacking something or taking 2?” Adam calls for a judge and says that Norbert missed his trigger.

What do you do?

Players can't rush opponents through their triggers, so Norbert will still get his trigger. I would back up the game in the following manner:
- Put Abzan Advantage back on Adams hand.
- Put a random card from Adams hand back on top of his library.
- Go to Beginning of Upkeep and put Norberts trigger on the stack.

I would explain the rules to Adam and make sure that he understands. I would not issue any penalties here.

Originally posted by IPG:

Players may not cause triggered abilities controlled by an opponent to be missed by taking game actions or otherwise prematurely advancing the game. During an opponent’s turn, if a trigger’s controller demonstrates awareness of the trigger before they take an active role (such as taking an action or explicitly passing priority), the trigger is remembered

Norbert has demonstrated awareness of the trigger before taking any actions and therefore it is remembered. In this case we backup:
>Untap mana used to cast Abzan Advantage
>Return the Advantage to Adam's hand
>Randomly determine a card to return to the top of Adam's library
>We are in upkeep with the Mogis trigger on the stack

Play on and maybe a quick explanation of how missed trigger works for Adam.

I would make small investigation first. It seems from the description that Adam is rushing, but in the field i would ask both players about it.

If i feel that Adam was really rushing, then i explain to him he can't do that in order for his opponent to miss the trigger, according to IPG.
Since i am the HJ, I'd back that up to the upkeep by returning Abzan Advantage to Adam's hand, put random card from his hand on the top of the library and move to the beginning of upkeep.

Although, if Adam was just spelling turn steps without rushing, untapped and then drew the card and played Abzan Advantage, i would consider the trigger missed since the acknowledgement wasn't shown (no life was subtracted or no creature was sacrificed). Even the fact of spelling them can show that he's not rushing that much, since usually players untap and go straight to the draw. I believe Adam doesn't have to do everything slowly specially so his opponent will remember all triggers. In this case we resolve Mogis's trigger, asking adam when to resolve it, now, or at the start of the next phase, choosing the default option and Adam loses 2 lifes, no penalties given, since the trigger is not detrimental.

UPD, after some time reading answer, discussing with friends: i see, that back up is very arguable, although there is no straight directions on IPG, what to do in case of rushing.
Besides, many judges mention the line, that trigger is remembered on opponent's turn, until na explicitly gives priority or takes actions. Well, If we're talking about my second variant (where Adam is not in a rush), could NA then wait until end of turn to remember his trigger? I think, with usual pace, letting an opponent to draw and play a spell makes the upkeep trigger missed.

Edited Irina Kuzmina (July 26, 2015 02:09:22 AM)

Before Reading

Originally posted by IPG §2.1: Game Play Error - Missed Trigger:

Players may not cause triggered abilities controlled by an opponent to be missed by taking game actions or otherwise prematurely advancing the game. During an opponent’s turn, if a trigger’s controller demonstrates awareness of the trigger before they take an active role (such as taking an action or explicitly passing priority), the trigger is remembered

The quote above makes it clear to me that the trigger was not missed. Adam rushed, or at least appears to, through his beginning phase then on to his pre-combat main phase where he casts Abzan Advantage. Norbert has not taken an active role in the turn until asking Adam if he is sacrificing a creature or taking two damage. Therefore, Norbert will not receive a penalty for a GPE-MT and the trigger should go on the stack above Abzan Advantage.

I may be slightly suspicious of Adam's actions however. Was he rushing through the beginning phase of his turn in an attempt to get Norbert in trouble? The fact that Mogis' ability is not generally detrimental and Norbert would not receive a penalty if the trigger was missed is irrelevant. Players are not necessarily aware what the penalties are for an infraction and Adam may be assuming a missed trigger will get his opponent a penalty.

So, some further investigation is warranted to determine if Adam was trying to gain advantage by intentionally causing Norbert to miss the trigger and not have to sacrifice a creature or pay two life. I would ask to talk to Adam away from the table and ask him a few questions.

1. Why did he think the trigger was missed?
   
2. How long was Mogis on the battlefield? Has he had to sacrifice a creature or pay two life in previous turns?
   
3. Why did he rush through his untap, upkeep and draw steps?
   

Depending on the answers I get, I may ask Norbert some questions as well about how Adam had been playing throughout the course of the match. “Does Adam seem to play quickly in general?” seems to be a good thing to ask to determine if Adam just plays quickly in general and nothing unsporting was going on. The answers I would get from both players would determine if Adam gets an Unsporting Conduct - Cheating or no penalty.

Ruling: The trigger was not missed. No penalty to Norbert and put the Mogis trigger on the stack. Investigate Adam's actions further.

After Reading

Backing up to Adam's upkeep does seem more appropriate than adding Mogis' trigger to the stack above Abzan Advantage. So, return Abzan Advantage to Adam's hand, place a random card on top of his library and move back to his upkeep. Now add the Mogis trigger to the stack.

Is a backup supported for GPE Missed Trigger by the IPG?

So without having read other responses:

The IPG says as follows:

“During an opponent's turn, if a trigger's controller demonstrated awareness of the trigger before they take an active role (such as taking an action or explicitly passing priority,) the trigger is remembered.” I'd investigate to see if Norbert acknowledged “Upkeep, Draw” at all–even a simple “mmm hmmm” could change my ruling–but as written, Norbert never passed or took an option, so his action is considered remembered.

I'm not clear the fix, though. I'm guessing a rewind? But I can't actually find support for the IPG.

I'm also not clear whether I need to begin an investigation. As written, there is no infraction–but if Adam specifically rushes through “Untap, upkeep, draw,” and rushes the card into his hand to try to make Norbert forget, I don't know if that would qualify under UC-cheating.

Interesting scenario.

To me, there are two interesting questions:

1) Even if Adam was playing quickly to try to make his opponent miss his trigger, is that cheating as some of the posters have suggested? It may not be sporting to try to distract your opponent, but I think it is strategic rather than wrong. Even if I ask Adam why he was hustling so fast and he says, “I was hoping that Norbert would forget his trigger in upkeep if I hustled,” I can't see how he's broken the rules. My answer is just “Well, he didn't forget. Sorry.”

2) So now what? If we don't think Norbert has missed his trigger and we don't think that Adam broke a rule, how do we fix the situation? If I was judging this tournament right now, I would absolutely backup to Adam's upkeep in the manner suggested by Lars. However, like Eli, I am not sure if this is a deviation or not given that I am disinclined to assess either player with a penalty. I am very interested in what the KP team has to say.

Before reading other responses:

This weeks scenario is pretty dependent on the results of my investigation. This could theoretically be a Missed Trigger for Norbert. On the other hand, it sounds like Adam just rushed through the beginning of his turn, and didn't give Norbert a chance to acknowledge his trigger. I'd want to ask Adam and Norbert how fast Adam talked through his beginning of turn, how much of a pause he had between his actions, and whether Norbert confirmed any actions. I'd also be interested in Adam's line of thought here. Has he correctly resolved Mogis's trigger in past turns? Is he trying to make his opponent forget his trigger by rushing past it?

Re-reading the IPG, it seems they've cleaned up the language a bit, and it makes the situation rather clear. I don't remember an announcement for that. :)

With regards to opponent's triggers, the IPG currently states “ During an opponent’s turn, if a trigger’s controller demonstrates awareness of the trigger before they take an active role (such as taking an action or explicitly passing priority), the trigger is remembered”

Norbert has not explicitly passed priority, he hasn't said “OK”, and he hasn't taken any actions. I'm ruling the trigger is not missed.

The remedy for this is a bit trickier - all the remedies for Missed Trigger assume that a trigger was actually missed. In this case, the trigger was not missed, but the active player trampled over it. But, I don't think Adam has committed an infraction here either. The cleanest fix is to have Adam make a legal choice for Mogis's trigger now. He can take 2 damage, or sacrifice the Spirit or the Battle Priest. We can then treat the batch of items as out-of-order sequencing on Adam's part. (note that if Abzan Advantage had instead been a creature, Adam could not sacrifice that creature, as that would not be a legal out-of-order sequence).

We might be tempted to perform a backup to the upkeep here, but I think that's a worse solution - we're backing up through a draw, giving Adam extra information, and potentially a chance to use what he drew as a response to Mogis's trigger.

We might also be tempted to perform the default action (the trigger reads “2 damage…unless”), but that fix only applies to default choices that would be made by the trigger's controller.

So in summary - No infraction for either player, resolve the trigger now, making a choice that was legal when it would have resolved.

After reading other responses:

Most other judges agree that it's not a missed trigger, but disagree on the fix. Some are advocating a backup, and Eli also points out that the IPG is not quite clear on what's supported. Given the IPG's note about “out of order sequencing may apply here”, I like the ‘resolve the trigger now’ fix the best.

Also, as another point of discussion, while we usually assume no cheating in Knowledge Pool, if we were suspicious of Adam here, what infraction has he committed or allowed to be committed, with intent to gain advantage?

Originally posted by Meghan Baum:

Hello my friends! Welcome back to the Knowledge Pool! This week's scenario is Silver, so we would like to ask L2+ judges to wait until Saturday to post their ideas and suggestions.

The blog post for this senario can be found here

You are the head and only judge for a standard PPTQ. Adam is playing against Norbert. Norbert controls a Mogis, God of Slaughter. Adam controls an Orchard Spirit and an Aven Battle Priest. Adam starts his turn saying “Untap, Upkeep, Draw" and draws his card for turn, he then slams Abzan Advantage on the table saying, “Target you!” to Norbert. Norbert then says, “Hold on, are you sacking something or taking 2?” Adam calls for a judge and says that Norbert missed his trigger.

What do you do?

Before reading other responses:

I don't believe that Norbert has missed his trigger. Adam has quickly moved through his untap, upkeep and draw, and this would be the first time that something visible has happened in the current turn. In the IPG it even says that a trigger isnt missed UNTIL the trigger's controller takes a real action. I want to say that rewinding through a draw could cause the game to continue down a different decision tree which should be avoided. I'm really unsure of what the fix would be in this situation…


—

Hmm, after reading other responses, I went and checked this trigger on the magicjudges wiki, and it states that once the controller's obligations are fulfilled, further problems are treated as a GPE-GRV. Maybe rewinding would be okay..? None of the other fixes from GRV seem to handle this situation well.

Edited Brandon Salaz (July 24, 2015 07:42:27 PM)

Had to be there.

I would ask both players how quickly Adam was playing. If there was even one or two seconds between the times he said “Draw” and he played Abzan Advantage, I would rule that the trigger was missed.

If Adam was really rushing, and it was one quick series of Actions “Untap, Upkeep, Draw, <draw>, <slam card>” then I would rule that the trigger wasn't missed.



Basically as soon as Adam says “Draw”, Norbert has to step in and announce his upkeep trigger. But he didn't. He let Adam draw a card. Then he let adam cast a spell. Only then he stepped in to announce his trigger. The fact that Adam announces his draw step, draws a card and then plays a card, means that this probably didn't happen in the fraction of a second. This looks like Norbert only remembered the trigger when he realized he's supposed to sacrifice an enchantment.

Edited Tobias Rolle (July 25, 2015 06:40:42 AM)

Going to get wordy. Apologies in advance.

Originally posted by Tobias Rolle:

Basically as soon as Adam says “Draw”, Norbert has to step in and announce his upkeep trigger. But he didn't. He let Adam draw a card. Then he let adam cast a spell. Only then he stepped in to announce his trigger.

Is permitting someone to do something an active action on the part of an individual? Does one explicitly allow another to take actions in the game merely by not instantaneously reacting by asking the other player to stop? If it does not need to be instantaneous, at what point is the lack of response taken as explicit passing of priority?

The scenario as written has no response from Norbert until the point after Abzan Advantage is cast, and given that he leads with “Hold on” it seems reasonable to interpret the scenario as written that Adam has gone through the listed sequence of actions with expediency.

The IPG tells us that one's trigger is remembered on an opponent's turn provided they demonstrate awareness of it before taking an active role. An acknowledgement of passing priority during the upkeep from Norbert would then turn this into a missed trigger, but no such acknowledgement is in the scenario as written.

Obviously we should ask the players what happened to ensure we have a proper understanding of the scenario, but if what transpired is exactly what is written and no more then the trigger was remembered. We should educate Adam to ensure he understands that he cannot cause his opponent's triggers to be missed by prematurely advancing the game.

Interestingly, we cannot apply out of order sequencing here as

MTR 4.3
An out-of-order sequence must not result in a player prematurely gaining information which could reasonably affect decisions made later in that sequence.

Adam knows the card he is drawing for the turn before he is making his decision about whether he will sacrifice a creature or take 2 damage. This could reasonably affect his decision of which creature to sacrifice (or whether to sacrifice a creature at all) if he, for example, drew Abzan Advantage. Maybe he'll want a 4/4 flier so sacrificing his Orchard Spirit seems better now that he knows that.

It is worth noting that even if we ruled missed trigger we do not get to resolve the “default action” as it does not involve choices made by the controller of the triggered ability.

Here I am uncertain how to proceed in a manner supported by written policy. My inclination is to resolve the trigger now and continue with the game, but Adam has already gained knowledge he should not have had when making the decision for the trigger and it seems there is no way to remedy that. The IPG appears to be clear that this trigger is remembered, but there is no guidance on how to proceed other than the statement about Out of Order Sequencing which, as previously stated, cannot technically be applied here.

Going to throw this out there. Could Adam rushing through “untap, upkeep, draw” as a single phrase then drawing his card with no indication on receiving priority back during the upkeep actually be gpe-dec? I don't think it is but that thought went through my head. If so, we need to issue a warning, back-up to the non-active player receiving priority in the upkeep and apply the dec fix of Adam revealing his hand and Norbert choosing a card to be re randomized with the game proceeding from there.
Just my thoughts in the back of my head.

The IPG requires an EXPLICIT priority pass in order to move beyond the upkeep trigger. Norbert didn't do anything before Adam drew his card, so we cannot rule that the trigger is missed.

As this is not a Missed Trigger scenario, we won't be looking in the Missed Trigger section of the IPG. In fact…

Originally posted by IPG:

The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would
have on the game:
• A triggered ability that requires its controller to choose targets (other than ‘target opponent’),
modes, or other choices made when the ability is put onto the stack: The controller must announce
those choices before they next pass priority.
• A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a
choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the
action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly
moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.
Note that casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten,
as it could still be on the stack.
• A triggered ability that changes the rules of the game: The controller must acknowledge the trigger or
prevent an opponent from taking any resulting illegal action.
• A triggered ability that affects the game state in non-visible ways: The controller must make the change
known by the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state.
Once any of the above obligations has been fulfilled, further problems are treated as a Game Play Error — Game
Rule Violation.

(Emphasis mine)
The second obligation is the only one that kind of applies, as it does change the visible game state AND requires a choice on resolution. That means we are now looking at GRV. I would in that case rewind the casting of Abzan Advantage and the draw (assuming no fetchlands in play for Norbert, that would make me think twice) and put the trigger on the stack.

If we are rewinding to before the draw then I believe we have GPE-DEC otherwise I don't think we can rewind to before the draw. Rational a card was draw which that information affects the choices in the upkeep.