Let's say we're playing at a competitive REL event and the table next to us calls for a judge. We're between games and we're judges, so we listen in and the floor judge gets the call wrong. Neither player appeals.

Is it OK to suggest the players appeal? Are we obliged to step in? What should we do here?

You are players/spectators at the event, so you shouldn't interfere in another match directly. You should probably get the judge's attention and explain why you think the ruling was wrong. You're certainly not obligated to do anything in that situation as judges.

Along the same lines - let's continue with the current assumption from the player's perspective: I'm a player in the middle of a game, and I know the answering judge answered a call (let's say a pretty significant call, game-making) incorrectly. I know that, as per the MTR, I'm allowed to ask those players to stop the match so I can explain to the judge.

As for the crux of my perception of the issue, what problems arise from the fact that I'm mid-game? Can we issue a time extension for my own match, or am I to not get involved at all in this instance? (I know that this is somewhat of a corner case, but I've had it pop up with players in a couple of my events).

I agree with Josh. I wouldn't want to interfere directly with the match by speaking to the players — I don't think it would be hard to argue “You should appeal that ruling” is outside assistance. I'd agree with trying to get the judge's attention and speaking with them away from the table.

I do think it would be hard to argue that “You should appeal that ruling.”
is outside assistance. It is not strategic advice to do with gameplay, and
I don't think anybody should end up being penalized for it.

As to the original question, I don't really feel comfortable interfering
with the match, and we're not obliged to step in, but I think it would be
best if you paused the match and spoke with the judge away from the table.

2016-01-21 1:35 GMT-05:00 Brook Gardner-Durbin <

You can deal with this situation in an adequate way, fixing the problem WITHOUT destroying that judge's reputation.

Ask the players politely to stop their match.

Talk to the judge at some distance of the involved table, explain why you think that ruling is incorrect, and let him have a second opinion on the matter.

In the end, remember that his decision (or the HJ one) is final. You can't and really shouldn't appeal that ruling if the players don't, although you can suggest him to take a third opinion (HJ maybe??) if some disagreement arises.

This way, you provide an excellent service. Players get their problem (hopefully) fixed, a judge learns from his mistake without losing rep, and everybody is happy :)

Originally posted by Joaquín Pérez:

You can deal with this situation in an adequate way, fixing the problem WITHOUT destroying that judge's reputation.

Ask the players politely to stop their match.

Talk to the judge at some distance of the involved table, explain why you think that ruling is incorrect, and let him have a second opinion on the matter.

In the end, remember that his decision (or the HJ one) is final. You can't and really shouldn't appeal that ruling if the players don't, although you can suggest him to take a third opinion (HJ maybe??) if some disagreement arises.

This way, you provide an excellent service. Players get their problem (hopefully) fixed, a judge learns from his mistake without losing rep, and everybody is happy :)

This. Keep in mind that it is entirely possible that the floor judge got the call right, and you may not have overheard the entire scenario, or missed a piece of relevant info, since you're focused on your own match.

Originally posted by Joaquín Pérez:

In the end, remember that his decision (or the HJ one) is final. You can't and really shouldn't appeal that ruling if the players don't, although you can suggest him to take a third opinion (HJ maybe??) if some disagreement arises.

I can't?


“If a player disagrees with a judge’s ruling, he or she may appeal the ruling to the Head Judge.”


I'm a player. I disagree with the ruling. It's not my match that's being ruled, but the MTR don't say it has to be.

Also, I want to note that a floor judge's ruling is never final in the terms of the MTR. Final rulings are given be the HJ or be designated appeals judges.

I absolutely agree that shouting “You are wrong!” is not a smart or polite thing to do. But what I'm more concerned about what I'm allowed to do. Is there any scenario in which the sentence “You should appeal!” could be considered as outside assistance?

Originally posted by Jasper König:

I'm a player. I disagree with the ruling. It's not my match that's being ruled, but the MTR don't say it has to be.

Just to note, you are a spectator of any match you are not playing in.

MTR 1.3
Individuals who are not judges at a tournament are acting as spectators in any match they are not playing in.

I've done this exact thing as a neighboring player. I suggest that the player appeal and hope that the HJ sorts it out. While I agree that taking the FJ aside and explaining why they are wrong is the ideal solution, that's not the kind of time investment that I want to make while I'm playing in a tournament. Yes, I understand that I can ask for a time extension if I do this, but it's a disruption to the flow of the match and potentially my thought process.

If the HJ continues on the path with the wrong ruling, I might speak to them away from the table, but I might not. At that point, the bed is made, and I don't know how much traction I'm going to get discussing it with the HJ.

The player AND judge in me hates watching a bad call change a game, the spirit of the game is to play the whole match in as “organic” a way as possible. I as a person struggle with this greatly, I have a vehement dislike for missed calls (it might come from years of being an athlete) but I struggle with the idea of “you should appeal” being outside assistance, as in my opinion you are doing very little different from stopping the match and having a talk aside (as the game goes, professional courtesy aside).
I would also like some words on how to reconcile this within myself. All comments appreciated.

William, the decision to appeal is not a measure of skill. If we start considering that sort of thing strategic advice, we get into real fuzzy stuff.

EDIT: just in case you're concerned about actual OA

Edited Yonatan Kamensky (Jan. 25, 2016 03:57:50 AM)

Originally posted by Yonatan Kamensky:

William, the decision to appeal is not a measure of skill. If we start considering that sort of thing strategic advice, we get into real fuzzy stuff.

EDIT: just in case you're concerned about actual OA

I agree to a large extent the decision to appeal is actually just a show of confidence. Like I said I just struggle with the idea that we would think that saying you should appeal is ever bad.

• Seeks play advice or hidden information about his or her match from others once he or
she has sat for his or her match.
• Gives play advice or reveals hidden information to players who have sat for their match.
• During a game, refers to notes (other than Oracle™ pages) made before the official
beginning of the current match.

That's the definition of Outside Assistance. I don't see anything in there that matches “you should appeal”.

d:^D

In the vein of helping the involved judge grow and improve as a judge, I would ask the players to pause their game, and go speak to a judge. While I know that this could result in time extensions, and messing up the tournament timing, I feel it is our responsibility as fellow judges to help each other improve. We all make mistakes, there could be confusion about the information presented, or not even a complete picture of said events. Speaking to this judge helps them potentially correct any incorrect rulings that they have made, and helps them from making the same incorrect rulings in the future. If you end up being incorrect yourself, then you've gotten yourself a quick learning experience.