Hello all, welcome back to the Knowledge Pool! This week's scenario is Silver, so L2+ judges should wait until Saturday before diving in.

The blog post for this scenario is here: http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/?p=2204

Aaron is playing against Nilanthi during a Legacy Grand Prix Trial, and controls a face-down creature and a Grizzly Bears. During Aaron's declare attackers step, Nilanthi casts Murderous Cut targeting Grizzly Bears. Aaron responds by paying Grim Haruspex's morph cost and turning it face up. Aaron puts the Grizzly Bears into the graveyard and says “trigger?” Nilanthi casts Collected Company in response, putting two creatures onto the battlefield. After Collected Company has resolved, Aaron passes the turn to Nilanthi, who realizes during her draw step, after she has drawn, that Aaron forgot to draw a card and calls for a judge.

What do you do?

This really wants to be a missed trigger, but isn't. Aaron clearly acknowledged it when it went on the stack, he just didn't resolve it. I'd give him a GPE-GRV and apply the partial fix of drawing a card, and give Nilanthi a GRV-FtMGS. (No reason at all to consider double GRV here; Nilanthi had nothing to do with the effect that was improperly resolved.)

This is unfortunately a Missed Trigger with no penalties for either side.

The Grim Haruspex's ability changes the game state in a visible way (Aaron will end up with an additional card) and the IPG requires him to take action at the point it would change the game state - in this case during resolution, the fact that he said ‘trigger’ doesn't prevent this from being a missed trigger.

Originally posted by IPG:

A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action to be taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly taking an action in the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.

Marc, I think you may have stopped reading that sentence a bit too early ;)

Originally posted by Nathaniel Lawrence:

Marc, I think you may have stopped reading that sentence a bit too early ;)

I disagree with what you're driving at. Aaron did not make it clear what the action to be taken was - he simply pointed out the trigger. Had he said “Haruspex trigger, draw a card” it'd be a different story, but simply saying “Trigger?” doesn't make it clear what the action to be taken is.

I'd say it's a missed trigger, no penalty, opponent can choose to let them have the trigger if they want.

While I agree with the predisposition that simply saying “Trigger” isn't enough, there is enough data here to tell me that this player was clearly demonstrating awareness of the trigger and its resulting effect at an appropriate time; namely, unmorphing the Haruspex and not even mentioning the trigger until the Grizzly Bears were in the graveyard.

That said, my initial reading of the scenario was under the impression that this was all happening during Aaron's end step, and that he may not have explicitly made effort to pass the turn after NAP resolved Collected Company - but on further read I can get behind the trigger being missed if Aaron did in fact go through the motions of “pass turn” after CoCo resolved.

Let me remember you guys that it's supposed that we (L2+) can't discuss eventual solutions until Saturday.

Greets.

Originally posted by Cristóbal Vigar Guerrero:

Let me remember you guys that it's supposed that we (L2+) can't discuss eventual solutions until Saturday.

Greets.

The scenario was posted March 4 (a Friday), so they have waited for Saturday to pass.

Safe to say this falls under the category of a trigger causing a change in the visible game state, as it would add a card to a players hand.

Originally posted by IPG:

A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life
totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate
physical action or make it clear what the action to be taken or choice made is before
taking any game actions

I struggled with the fact that the player said “trigger”, but the annotated IPG has guidance for this situation.

Annotated IPG
For triggers with physical actions, a verbal acknowledgement of the trigger is not sufficient; the physical actions must be performed at the correct time

So, I think that even in the case where the player says “trigger, draw a card,” but doesn't draw a card, it is a missed trigger. (“Trigger, draw a card” would, by the IPG, give you the trigger no matter what because of “make it clear what action is to be taken”)

Ruling: missed trigger, give opponent option, issue no warning.

Edited Jon Munck (March 7, 2016 02:58:50 PM)

Originally posted by Jeff S Higgins:

Cristóbal Vigar Guerrero
Let me remember you guys that it's supposed that we (L2+) can't discuss eventual solutions until Saturday.

Greets.

The scenario was posted March 4 (a Friday), so they have waited for Saturday to pass.

Really, just a few hours of waiting until start answering?
I don't want to be the bad guy, but, is more usefull to L1 to discuss between them and trying to questioning their answers, not giving them answers.

And when all the discuss has been made, go in there and help them giving solutions and discussing with the others.

Btw if I made a mistake with the time, sorry, maybe its because my time zone clock :P

Best regards!

KP Scenarios are usually posted Thursday or Friday of each week, and we want some segments of the judge population to have a chance to discuss, before others join in. That's why each scenario will have a category (Bronze, Silver, etc.) and a reminder for some to wait.

Once Sunday rolls around, it's a “free-for-all”.

d:^D

Originally posted by Jon Munck:

I struggled with the fact that the player said “trigger”, but the annotated IPG has guidance for this situation.

Hey hey…so that quote is wrong, and should have been edited out with the last revision, but was missed (is editing the blogs a physical action?). If you scroll down from that point to where we annotate the bullet point from the IPG that talks about triggers with physical actions, you will see the applicable text.l you are actually lookin for

That line will be removed when I have a keyboard.

-Bryan

Well Bryan's comments make this a bit more challenging as the Annotated IPG statement was the logic I'd remembered before posting.

Still I don't think he's made it clear what the action is: “Trigger”≠ “Draw a Card”, so I'm sticking with my earlier ruling.

Aaron has explicitly passed the turn, watched Nilanthi's untap and draw before she is the one who actually notices he didn't draw.

Welcome back everyone! Thank you all for participating in a lively discussion! A quick shout out to Marc Shotter who really nailed it. Marc said:
“The Grim Haruspex's ability changes the game state in a visible way (Aaron will end up with an additional card) and the IPG requires him to take action at the point it would change the game state - in this case during resolution, the fact that he said ‘trigger’ doesn't prevent this from being a missed trigger.”

Nathanel Lawrence then pointed out to us that there is more to that sentence, and there absolutely is. The rest of the sentence indicates that “make it clear what the action to be taken or choice made is before taking any game actions.”

Unfortunately Aaron was not clear in his actions. There are a few different ways Aaron could have made his intent clear. A statement such as “draw trigger”, or even simply gesturing to the Haruspex would have been sufficient. As the scenario stands right now, Aaron was a bit too ambiguous for our current policy.

The final ruling is Missed Trigger, no penalty for either side, and Nilanthi may choose to place the trigger on to the stack.

Originally posted by Benjamin McDole:

Unfortunately Aaron was not clear in his actions. There are a few different ways Aaron could have made his intent clear. A statement such as “draw trigger”, or even simply gesturing to the Haruspex would have been sufficient.

Can you follow up on the reasoning behind the bolded part? I personally don't see a player making it “clear what the action to be taken” will be just by pointing to Haruspex.