Greetings judges! Welcome back to the Knowledge Pool. This week we have Silver scenario, so L2 judges should wait until Sunday before they reply.

The blog post for this scenario is here

You are a floor judge of a Standard PPTQ. During a deck check, you find that Arnold has some other cards in the deck box with the sideboard that are not on his decklist. You find 4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and 4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in blue sleeves. Arnold is playing a Blue-White deck in green sleeves.

After investigating, you find out those are cards he lent a friend that has dropped, and you exclude Cheating. What do you do?

Given that they are in other sleeves, I'd issue no penalty but ask him to move the cards elsewhere.

As per the IPG 3.5:

Cards that are obviously not part of the deck (e.g. cards in different
sleeves, tokens) are ignored when determining deck legality.

No penalty, but ask to the player to give back the cards to his friend
until the end of the pptq, or simply store them elsewhere.

The IPG is a little unclear in this case. If the cards could conceivably be played in the deck (for instance, the player has access to blue/white mana), I would lean toward this being an actual Deck/Decklist Problem. The fact they're in different sleeves lends credence to the player's story, but it's still not acceptable to store them with his deck. I've bolded the relevant section below.


"Cards that are obviously not part of the deck (e.g. cards in different sleeves, tokens) are ignored when determining deck legality.

Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player’s deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard unless they are:
• Promotional cards that have been handed out as part of the tournament.
• Double-faced cards represented by checklist cards in the deck.
• Double-faced cards being used to represent the ‘night’ side of cards in the deck."

EDIT: Of course, issue a game loss, have him find somewhere else to store those cards and proceed to game two. No side boarding will be allowed but he will get to choose to play or draw first.

Edited Robert Johnston (April 30, 2016 11:10:20 PM)

I would consider this a part of that player's sideboard and issue a D/DLP game loss. The cards could be played in the player's deck, and it's unusual, but not remarkably so, to have your sideboard in different sleeves from the main deck. I've seen players desleeve their mainboard cards and move sideboard cards into those sleeves before.

I agree that cards in different sleeves are easily tradable with cards
within the deck itself, but If that's the case, why would the IPG
explicitly say that these cards are obviously not part of the deck?

It doesn't explicitly say this in the one I read from.It just says that the allowed cards, promos, DFC, etc. Must not be sleeved in the same sleeves.I can't see anywhere that allows for cards in other sleeves.

Subject: Re: Something borrowed, something blue - SILVER (Knowledge Pool Scenarios)
From: forum-26748-4bb1@apps.magicjudges.org
To: sean_crain14@hotmail.com
Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 04:42:15 +0000

I agree that cards in different sleeves are easily tradable with
cards
within the deck itself, but If that's the case, why would
the IPG
explicitly say that these cards are obviously not part of
the
deck?

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Originally posted by Yurick Costa:

As per the IPG 3.5:

Cards that are obviously not part of the deck (e.g. cards in different
sleeves, tokens) are ignored when determining deck legality.

If we've had to investigate the matter, I would no longer consider it “obvious” that the cards were not part of the deck/sideboard.
I would issue a Game Loss and mention to Arnold that he is entitled to appeal the decision to the Head Judge.

Originally posted by Sean Crain:

It doesn't explicitly say this in the one I read from.It just says that the allowed cards, promos, DFC, etc. Must not be sleeved in the same sleeves.I can't see anywhere that allows for cards in other sleeves.

It is a new thing in the latest update. Check the version of IPG from April 8, 2016.

“Cards that are obviously not part of the deck (e.g. cards in different sleeves, tokens) are ignored when determining deck legality.”

I personaly also feel the uncertainty that the newest wording creates. It is more demanding on Head Judges' judgment. I think that this part of Deck/Decklist problem should be worked on a bit. I think that a card being sleeved in a different way is not sufficient sign that the card “is not obviously part of the deck”. I have seen many things.

On the other hand, I also understand the change of the policy - generally, by being strict on this one you only provide bad customer service to some poor souls who had no idea they couldn't do that. Still I think that by softening the rule, we provide an unnecessary loophole for dishonest players.

By the way, I always try to mention it in my announcements: only your maindeck and sideboard cards shall be on the table / in your deckbox. And your opponent should be able to check it.

As Robert pointed out, we also have the Philosophy of DDLP:

Originally posted by IPG 3.5:

Additionally, if there are extra cards stored with the sideboard that could conceivably be played in the player's deck, they will be considered a part of the sideboard unless they are:

• Promotional cards that have been handed out as part of the tournament.
  
• Double-faced cards represented by checklist cards in the deck.
  
• Double-faced cards being used to represent the ‘night’ side of cards in the deck.
  

These cards must not be sleeved in the same way as cards in the main deck and/or sideboard.

That excerpt seems to conflict with:

Originally posted by IPG 3.5:

Cards that are obviously not part of the deck (e.g. cards in different sleeves, tokens) are ignored when determining deck legality

Anyhow, do we want to encourage players to check if his opponents are unsleeving/sleeving any cards during sideboard? Does the fact that these two cards are usually used in the main deck and 4-ofs in the sideboard are extremely rare is of any relevance?

I'll agree with Milan, but I would probably keep my ruling here.
No penalty issued, but ask Arnold to put the cards away and warn him about the possible dangers of storing cards alongside sideboard.

EDIT: corrected some text formatting

Edited Yurick Costa (May 2, 2016 07:23:29 AM)

When you play standard with a UW deck, it's hard to tell that Jace and Gideon are “obviously not part of the deck”, even in different sleeves.

I think that the “obviously not part of the deck” is here for card that are “obviously not part of the deck” ie cards that you can't cast with your deck, promo cards and stuff like that. By stretching a lot, maybe if in the deck there are already 4 jace and 4 gideon, i may consider that those in green sleeves are “not part of the deck” and just ask the player to remove them from his box, but that's a corner of the corner case.

Originally posted by Robert Johnston:

"Cards that are obviously not part of the deck (e.g. cards in different sleeves, tokens) are ignored when determining deck legality.

I think this phrase applies to cards *in your deck* (e.g. an Aura your opponent put on your creature, and was shuffled at the end of the game), not to cards *in your deckbox*.

If you shuffle your deck and don't notice a sleeve of another color before presenting your deck to your opponent, you might need new glasses :p (And as we're not supposed to pick up deck for deck check before they are presented to the opponent…)

Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:

I think this phrase applies to cards *in your deck* (e.g. an Aura your opponent put on your creature, and was shuffled at the end of the game), not to cards *in your deckbox*.

Now, that was clarifying. Thanks, Francesco.

Gilles Demarle
If you shuffle your deck and don't notice a sleeve of another color before presenting your deck to your opponent, you might need new glasses :p (And as we're not supposed to pick up deck for deck check before they are presented to the opponent…)

I play a Sen Triplets commander deck, and it happens all the time with me :p

So.. DDLP - Game loss. I was crossing the border between the deckbox and the deck itself.
Sorry for the fuss ><'

Ahah yeah, 100 cards deck are maybe an exception (but you don't have sideboard in commader by the way :p )