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Knowledge Pool Scenarios » Post: Bloody Half-Missed Triggers! - SILVER

Bloody Half-Missed Triggers! - SILVER

June 19, 2013 03:46:44 PM

Aaron Huntsman
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Great Lakes

Bloody Half-Missed Triggers! - SILVER

Interesting side question: is it a double GRV or a GRV+FtmGS? Andrew failed to point out that Nikolai resolved his triggered abilities incorrectly, which would be FtmGS on its own, but does Andrew's failing to acknowledge the correct change in life totals constitute an illegal “action” from an effect that Nikolai controls? What if the players have agreed on a shared method that Nikolai is keeping track of? Must Andrew verbally announce his life total change?

Note that this doesn't change the general agreement that we should not change the life totals at this point in the game, as it's not among the list of partial fixes we're allowed to apply, and it's too late to rewind.

Edited Aaron Huntsman (June 19, 2013 03:48:45 PM)

June 20, 2013 01:42:33 AM

Michel Degenhardt
Judge (Uncertified)

BeNeLux

Bloody Half-Missed Triggers! - SILVER

We could fix the life totals if both players agreed that the life total change happened, but they forgot to write it down. However, that is not the case. Here, both players agree that the life total change didn't happen, Nikolai because he missed that part of the trigger, Andrew because he believed he didn't have to make his opponent aware of a missed trigger.

The reason it's not cheating is simple: Andrew isn't aware that he's doing something illegal.

That makes it definately a GRV for Nikolai, and it's too late to back up. The question is what penalty Andrew should receive. Blood Artist requires a target, but in all 1v1 games that target will be the opponent. Therefore, the fact that no target was declared does not change that Andrew should have done something: lose life. Because it was an action Andrew was supposed to take, he will receive a warning for GRV as well, along with an explanation about the difference between missed and incorrectly resolved triggers. That way, we know he is aware, so it won't be GRV next time.

June 25, 2013 01:27:34 PM

Bryan Spellman
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy))

USA - Southwest

Bloody Half-Missed Triggers! - SILVER

Solution
To all the judges and players around the world that took the time to post in this thread: thanks for another fantastic discussion! Despite the entire world congregating on Vegas, we managed to have another great week of a KP Scenario.

Here's your solution:

Players aren't allowed to partially miss a trigger. Our first instinct may be to treat this like a Missed Trigger. It is important to note that an improperly resolved trigger is not a missed trigger. The Missed Trigger policy says “Once any of the above obligations has been fulfilled, or the trigger has been otherwise acknowledged, further problems are treated as a Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation” (2.1). In a situation of a trigger that wasn't completely fulfilled, we are dealing with a GPE-GRV.

To correctly “fix” a GRV, we can consider backing up to the point of error. Too much has happened in this game for us to back up all the way to the point of the Blood Artist trigger in question. Can we simply fix the life totals? Let's take a look at the IPG.
If not caught within a reasonable time frame, or backing up is impossible or sufficiently complex that it could affect the course of the game, the judge should leave the game state as it is after applying state-based actions and not attempt any form of partial ‘fix’ – either reverse all actions or none, with the following exceptions:

• If a player made an illegal choice or failed to make a required choice for a permanent on the battlefield, that player makes a legal choice.
• If a player forgot the turn-based action of drawing a card, that player draws a card.
• If a player forgot to discard or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player does so.
• If an object is in the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone.
The game cannot be backed up. The error occurred four turns ago. Changing Andrew’s life total does not fall within the acceptable four exceptions. We don't apply any partial fix.

An incompletely resolved trigger is not the same thing as a missed trigger, so it is not OK for a player to notice and not mention the situation like they can with a missed trigger. If the investigation reveals Andrew did notice at the time but didn't say anything, it would only escape the Cheating infraction if we believe he didn't know this part of the rules. Education is paramount.

Assuming no cheating, Nikolai will get a GPE-GRV. Andrew will receive a GPE-FTMGS. The game will continue as is.

It is important to remember that “fixing” life totals is not one of our partial fixes for a GRV.