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Competitive REL » Post: Fix or Backup?

Fix or Backup?

June 6, 2017 10:51:39 AM

Jacopo Strati
Judge (Level 2), TLC

Italy and Malta

Fix or Backup?

Hello fellow judges! :D

Anna casts an Approach of the Second Sun for the first time in the game but, when it resolves, she puts it into her graveyard instead of inside her library.
After that Anna cracks an Evolving Wilds, she fetches for a Plains, she shuffles her deck and only once she has finished she realizes the error she made.

This is a GRV + W (and FTMGS + W to her opponent).
But how would you fix it?
I'd do a backup to fix this error.

Thanks in advance for your answers!

Edited Jacopo Strati (June 6, 2017 02:41:02 PM)

June 6, 2017 11:05:48 AM

Jonas Drieghe
Judge (Level 2)

BeNeLux

Fix or Backup?

Given the GPE-GRV, a possible partial fix could be:
If an object is in an incorrect zone either due to a required zone change being missed or due to being put into the wrong zone during a zone change, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved with only minor disruption to the current state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.

Since moving it now to its correct location would in my opinion be disruptive (because the fetch should have shuffled the library), I would not apply this partial fix.

We could easily do a backup, which in this scenario feels not very disruptive. No random elements are involved, no combat happened, …
The only relevant decision was the fetch, enabling the possibility that because of our backup the player could now make a different decision.
If you feel that this is too disruptive (I personally don't) you can always leave the game state as is, but that feels substantially worse in my opinion.

June 6, 2017 11:10:09 AM

Jacopo Strati
Judge (Level 2), TLC

Italy and Malta

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Jonas Drieghe:

Given the GPE-GRV, a possible partial fix could be:
If an object is in an incorrect zone either due to a required zone change being missed or due to being put into the wrong zone during a zone change, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved with only minor disruption to the current state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.

Since moving it now to its correct location would in my opinion be disruptive (because the fetch should have shuffled the library), I would not apply this partial fix.

We could easily do a backup, which in this scenario feels not very disruptive. No random elements are involved, no combat happened, …
The only relevant decision was the fetch, enabling the possibility that because of our backup the player could now make a different decision.
If you feel that this is too disruptive (I personally don't) you can always leave the game state as is, but that feels substantially worse in my opinion.

I totally agree with you, Jonas. :)

June 6, 2017 11:11:36 AM

Charlotte Sable
Judge (Level 3)

Europe - North

Fix or Backup?

I believe that this falls under the incorrect zone change partial fix, and
so I'd just shuffle the Approach of the Second Sun into the library at this
point.

June 6, 2017 11:18:44 AM

Jonas Drieghe
Judge (Level 2)

BeNeLux

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Charlotte Sable:

I believe that this falls under the incorrect zone change partial fix, and
so I'd just shuffle the Approach of the Second Sun into the library at this
point.
Out of curiosity, where do you find document support for the shuffle besides the somewhat ambiguous “put it in the correct zone”?
I interpreted this as “put in in the library seventh from the top” (or at least where it should have been if a draw would have happened instead of a shuffle).

June 6, 2017 11:34:25 AM

Jacopo Strati
Judge (Level 2), TLC

Italy and Malta

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Charlotte Sable:

I believe that this falls under the incorrect zone change partial fix, and
so I'd just shuffle the Approach of the Second Sun into the library at this
point.

It does, but I think that in this specific case a backup is a better option.
If you shuffle AotSS into Anna's library we are assuming that she would have cracked the fetch even with the sorcery actually in her deck, and this isn't very fair in my honest opinion.

It would be like forcing players to Lightning Bolt themselves if they cast this spell on a pro-red opponent while there's no other legal target around.
It feels almost the same to me. :)

Edited Jacopo Strati (June 6, 2017 11:34:51 AM)

June 6, 2017 11:34:35 AM

Charlotte Sable
Judge (Level 3)

Europe - North

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Jonas Drieghe:

Out of curiosity, where do you find document support for the shuffle besides the somewhat ambiguous “put it in the correct zone”?
I interpreted this as “put in in the library seventh from the top” (or at least where it should have been if a draw would have happened instead of a shuffle).

Since we caught the error in the middle of the shuffle, we perform a simple
backup to rewind the shuffle, put the Approach 7th from the top, then have
AP shuffle again.

The net result is that Approach is shuffled into the library, so we can
just do that in lieu of physically rewinding the shuffling itself.

Note that I'm not rewinding to before the activation of Evolving Wilds
itself, since activating that ability was legal. I'm just rewinding to
before the shuffle since a simple backup moves to
immediately before the action during which the error was discovered.

Edited Charlotte Sable (June 6, 2017 12:48:19 PM)

June 6, 2017 11:41:40 AM

Charlotte Sable
Judge (Level 3)

Europe - North

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Jacopo Strati:

It does, but I think that in this specific case a backup is a better option.
The problem with this approach is that a full backup for a GRV is only allowed if the situation doesn't fall under any of the partial fix categories. This situation clearly falls under the “wrong zone” partial fix and so it's not eligible for a full rewind or leaving the game state as it is.

June 6, 2017 11:44:22 AM

Jonas Drieghe
Judge (Level 2)

BeNeLux

Fix or Backup?

Your answer makes a lot of sense intuitively Charlotte, so I'm just playing devil's advocate here:

The IPG only mentions “simple backup” under GRV with regards to this partial fix:
If a player made an illegal choice (including no choice where required) for a static ability generating a continuous effect still on the battlefield, that player makes a legal choice. A
simple backup to clear problems generated by the illegal choice may be considered.

On top of that, Simple Backup states:
On A simple backup should not involve any random elements.

// Added through Annotated IPG:
If you are backing up through a shuffle or returning random cards from the hand to the library or anything of the sort, we are no longer in the realm of “simple”. Stop.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that your solution is fine and fits policy philosophy, it's somewhat ambiguous in the documents and I feel like you could make a fine case for both solutions (back up and partial fix).

Edited Jonas Drieghe (June 6, 2017 11:44:36 AM)

June 6, 2017 11:48:12 AM

Jacopo Strati
Judge (Level 2), TLC

Italy and Malta

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Charlotte Sable:

The problem with this approach is that a full backup for a GRV is only allowed if the situation doesn't fall under any of the partial fix categories

My understanding of that paragraph was that a fix is applicable as long as the error fits in it and doing it would not be too disruptive for the game state.
If it is, then we can consider a backup. Am I wrong?

Edited Jacopo Strati (June 6, 2017 11:56:54 AM)

June 6, 2017 11:57:43 AM

Charlotte Sable
Judge (Level 3)

Europe - North

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Jonas Drieghe:

A simple backup should not involve any random elements.
Yes, but the library is going to be shuffled again soon after. We're repeating the shuffle, so the problems inherent with rewinding a shuffle disappear. (Also, all my love and respect to the AIPG team, but the annotations are explanations and examples, not policy itself.)

Originally posted by Jacopo Strati:

My understanding of that paragrapf was that a fix is applicable as long as the error fits in it and doing it would not be too disruptive for the game state.
If it is, then we can consider a backup. Am I wrong?
The beginning of the Additional Remedy section for GRV states “If the infraction falls into one of the following categories, and only that category, perform the fix specified unless a simple backup is possible.” After the list of partial fixes, it continues “Otherwise, a backup may be considered or the game state left as it is.”

I read this as meaning that the only two options for the specified classes of error are the partial fix or a simple back up. The general “backup or leave the game state as it is” fix is only for GRVs that don't fall under these categories.

Edited Charlotte Sable (June 6, 2017 11:58:07 AM)

June 6, 2017 12:04:14 PM

Jacopo Strati
Judge (Level 2), TLC

Italy and Malta

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Charlotte Sable:

I read this as meaning that the only two options for the specified classes of error are the partial fix or a simple back up. The general “backup or leave the game state as it is” fix is only for GRVs that don't fall under these categories.

You're right, this is true for all the fixes. I've read again that part and I noticed that it talks about disruption only in the “moving objects” fix.

"If an object is in an incorrect zone either due to a required zone change being missed or due to being put into the wrong zone during a zone change, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved with only minor disruption to the current state of the game, put the object in the correct zone."

I think that the bolded sentence could applicable in this situation: if I believe that just shuffling AofSS in Anna's library is disruptive, I can do a backup instead. :D


ADDENDUM
My understanding of the GRV remedies follow this flow:

Step 1) is the error correctable via a simple backup? if YES, do it. Otherwise go to step 2.
Step 2) does the error fall into one (and only one) of the following fixes? if YES apply the proper one, otherwise goes to Step 3.
Step 3) is a back up doable? if YES, do it. Otherwise, leave everything as it is.

Edited Jacopo Strati (June 6, 2017 12:17:42 PM)

June 6, 2017 12:04:33 PM

Jonas Drieghe
Judge (Level 2)

BeNeLux

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Charlotte Sable:

Yes, but the library is going to be shuffled again soon after. We're repeating the shuffle, so the problems inherent with rewinding a shuffle disappear. (Also, all my love and respect to the AIPG team, but the annotations are explanations and examples, not policy itself.)
Nice insights, thanks!

Originally posted by Charlotte Sable:

I read this as meaning that the only two options for the specified classes of error are the partial fix or a simple back up. The general “backup or leave the game state as it is” fix is only for GRVs that don't fall under these categories.
I think Jacopo was trying to point out that he considers it NOT to fall in the category because:
…and it can be moved with only minor disruption to the current state of the game…

June 6, 2017 12:15:52 PM

Charlotte Sable
Judge (Level 3)

Europe - North

Fix or Backup?

Originally posted by Jacopo Strati:

"If an object is in an incorrect zone either due to a required zone change being missed or due to being put into the wrong zone during a zone change, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved with only minor disruption to the current state of the game, put the object in the correct zone."

I think that the bolded sentence could applicable in this situation: if I believe that just shuffling AofSS in Anna's library is disruptive, I can do a backup instead. :D

Ah, fair enough. If the move would be disruptive, then yes, it doesn't fit the category and the more general “backup or do nothing” fix is appropriate.

The card was supposed to go to the library and it went to the graveyard instead. AP played and cracked the Evolving Wilds here, knowing that it would re-order their library. I would be more wary of the strategic concerns if we were considering a full rewind here, but because this falls under the partial fix and because Approach of the Second Sun will be shuffled with the rest of the library when we resolve Evolving Wilds's ability, I personally don't see applying the partial fix as disruptive here.

June 6, 2017 12:30:01 PM

Jonas Drieghe
Judge (Level 2)

BeNeLux

Fix or Backup?

So you would still apply the Simple Backup even though the IPG only explicitly mentions it for another partial fix and not for this one?