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Competitive REL » Post: Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question

Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question

July 12, 2019 01:46:47 AM [Original Post]

Olivier Jansen
Judge (Level 2)

USA - Northeast

Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question

Missed trigger upgrade wording: “Upgrade: If the triggered ability is usually considered detrimental for the controlling player and they own the card responsible for the existence of the trigger, the penalty is a Warning.”

Missed triggers guide Core 2020: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/2019/07/08/core-2020-missed-triggers-guide/

Relevant text:
Chandra, Awakened Inferno
“+2: Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep, this emblem deals 1 damage to you.”

First and foremost, we have our dear mythic Chandra. There are a few important points to remember when dealing with this card out in Competitive REL tournaments. To start, the emblem is both owned and controlled by the opponent who receives it (Comprehensive Rules 113.2), so it is their trigger to remember. And as always, players are NOT allowed to intentionally forget their own triggers; doing so is considered Cheating. This trigger is generally detrimental though, meaning judges should step in and fix the game state as soon as they notice it’s been missed.

Despite all of that, this trigger should never result in a Warning; we only apply the upgrade path if a player “own(s) the card responsible for the existence of the trigger”. And while NAP owns the emblem, Chandra is the actual card that’s responsible here. So to recap: judges should remind players of this trigger, and try to fix it if it’s been less than a turn cycle since it was missed. But there’s no penalty here unless its controller is Cheating, by deliberately missing it. There is a lot to remember here, but with these points you should be able to properly analyze and fix Chandra scenarios.

Situation: I cast and own a Chandra, Awakened Inferno. My opponent casts Mass Manipulation, then +2's Chandra. I get an emblem. I own the card that's the source of the problem, but my opponent controlled the card at the moment it created a trigger-causing emblem. If I miss the trigger, it looks like I should get a warning under the current rules.

However, this seems slightly wonky - I get a warning on an emblem if and only if my opponent mass manipulationed a Chandra to get me. So if I'm, for example, against Temur Elementals (Plays both big chandra and mass manipulation), I could have two chandra emblems, and if I miss them, I get a warning for one but not the other. Upgrading a penalty depending on a sorcery potentially cast many turns ago seems wonky policy-wise.

Can I get a confirmation that this is how it works? If my own Chandra is stolen, and I miss the emblem trigger, it's a warning, but normally it's not?

Edited Olivier Jansen (July 12, 2019 01:47:51 AM)

July 12, 2019 02:05:33 AM [Marked as Accepted Answer]

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3), Regional Coordinator (USA - Northwest), Hall of Fame

USA - Northwest

Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question

You're right, Olivier, this is wonky - certainly a plausible scenario, considering both Chandra, Awakened Inferno and Mass Manipulation are seeing play. But that doesn't change the fact that this is, indeed, quite “wonky” (a non-technical variant of “corner case”).

The philosophy that guides us here, in this particular corner, is that your opponent created the situation (you having an emblem) that requires you to remember your own trigger; it's to their benefit to remind you of that trigger, and I think we can all agree that most opponents will do so - after all, that's the point of that particular line of play. But if you both honestly forget, then let's follow the same philosophy, and not issue a Warning.

d:^D

July 12, 2019 04:22:40 AM

Olivier Jansen
Judge (Level 2)

USA - Northeast

Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

You're right, Olivier, this is wonky - certainly a plausible scenario, considering both Chandra, Awakened Inferno and Mass Manipulation are seeing play. But that doesn't change the fact that this is, indeed, quite “wonky” (a non-technical variant of “corner case”).

The philosophy that guides us here, in this particular corner, is that your opponent created the situation (you having an emblem) that requires you to remember your own trigger; it's to their benefit to remind you of that trigger, and I think we can all agree that most opponents will do so - after all, that's the point of that particular line of play. But if you both honestly forget, then let's follow the same philosophy, and not issue a Warning.

d:^D

Got it. So it’s not just Chandra that’s the original source, but also the mass manipulation

Today 02:48:18 PM

Isaac King
Judge (Level 2)

Gainesville, Florida, United States of America

Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question

“This trigger is generally detrimental though, meaning judges should step in and fix the game state as soon as they notice it’s been missed.”

This isn't relevant to the original question, but since it was brought up I want to mention that this line is incorrect. The IPG tells us to only step in if we intend to issue a Warning- whether the trigger is detrimental or not is irrelevant. Since we wouldn't be giving a Warning here, we should not step in if we see the trigger missed unless we believe it may have been intentional.

Today 02:48:18 PM

Isaac King
Judge (Level 2)

Gainesville, Florida, United States of America

Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question

[Deleted]

Edited Isaac King (Today 02:51:58 PM)