Welcome, judges, to another week of the Knowledge Pool!

We have a Silver Scenario this week, which means we'd like to hear from L1s and judge candidate right away, but L2s and L3s should hold their input until Friday.

Here are your blog link and scenario:

Anita is playing in a Grand Prix Trial. She calls you to the table and informs you that she was resolving a mulligan to 6 and made an error. She tells you she was on autopilot and counted out 7 cards face down on the table. She then drew cards 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. At this point she realized she was only supposed to have 6 cards in hand and called you. Card 1 is still face down where she placed it when starting her count.

What do you do?

She has correctly drawn 6 cards, but she has not seen the 7th card. With this, and this alone, I would say that she should put the top card back onto her library and “Charlie Mike”.

However, the problem is that the card she has not seen, is the first card she should have drawn.

As it is, I dont see an applicable infraction for drawing like this, so I would vernture to say that it would fall under GRV.

So I would say that, Anita would get a Warning GPE-GRV, have her put card #1 back on top of the library and get them on their merry way.

NOTE: I would definitely talk to HJ / other judges in the area. As it feels as if I am missing something here.

On 27/08/2014 20:19, Joshua Feingold wrote:
>
> Welcome, judges, to another week of the Knowledge Pool!
>
> We have a Silver Scenario this week, which means we'd like to hear
> from L1s and judge candidate right away, but L2s and L3s should hold
> their input until Friday.
>
> Here are your blog link
> <http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/?p=1140> and scenario:
>
> Anita is playing in a Grand Prix Trial. She calls you to the table and
> informs you that she was resolving a mulligan to 6 and made an error.
> She tells you she was on autopilot and counted out 7 cards face down
> on the table. She then drew cards 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. At this point
> she realized she was only supposed to have 6 cards in hand and called
> you. Card 1 is still face down where she placed it when starting her
> count.
>
> What do you do?
>
>
>
> ——————————————————————————–
> If you want to respond to this thread, simply reply to this email. Or
> view and respond to this message on the web at
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/post/77761/
>
> Disable all notifications for this topic:
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/12166/
> Receive on-site notifications only for this topic:
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/12166/?onsite=yes
>
> You can change your email notification settings at
> http://apps.magicjudges.org/notifications/settings/
>
I am not sure if this is correct but going to have a go.
Well the library is random and the cards unknown. Placing cards face
down is not considered drawing. I would place card 1 back on top of the
deck. She has drew 6 cards the correct amount. I would apply no
penalties and ask her to play on. She can mulligan again if she wishes
down to 5 or keep the hand.

Graham

This exact scenario happened to me at Grand Prix Portland. She should never have seen that 7th card. The fact that she has not seen card number one is unfortunately irrelevant. Incorrect drawing at the start of game, fix and penalize per the IPG.

Edited Bob Narindra (Aug. 28, 2014 08:20:08 AM)

Originally posted by Bob Narindra:

This exact scenario happened to me at Grand Prix Portland. She should never have seen that 7th card. The fact that she has not seen card number one is unfortunately irrelevant. Incorrect drawing at the start of game, fix and penalize per the IPG.

See, now I looked at Improper Draw first, because that seemed like the right place to start. It mentions “wrong number of cards” not wrong order in which drawn. So, I feel that Improper Draw does not fit. GRV states “player makes an error or fails to follow a game procedure correctly”, this seems to fit better as she failed to follow drawing (which is a procedure of the game) properly.

Maybe I am getting caught up in legal jargon, but …

Just a reminder that we would like L2+ to wait until Friday to respond.

While she has drawn the correct number of cards, she still made “an error while drawing his or her opening hand”. So I wouldn't classify it as a GRV since it's covered by IDASG. Even though every card she drew is a random card from her library like it should be, she still made an error at the start of the game and should receive a warning for that.
Now, is there potential for abuse regarding this kind of error? Ruling out marked cards and the like, and also considerng she called the judge on herself, I can't really think of possible abuses. Every card in her hand is random and there should be absolutely no difference whether there's random card #1 instead of random card #7. I'd still record the error to see if it keeps happening “by accident”.

Edited Hannes Bernsdorf (Aug. 28, 2014 09:26:20 AM)

My first innitial thought is Improper Drawing at Start of Game. We apply that infraction mainly for wrong mulligans or drawing a card on the play, but i think it can be applied to this scenario as well. Drawing the card #7 is an error, no matter if card #1 is on the table or inside Anita's hand. So she gets a Warning for this infraction.

Now we have to fix the situation. The remedy is pretty clear, remove two from her hand and shuffle inside the library. I consider card #1 which is still on the table as content of her hand, therefore i random choose two of the seven cards and let her shuffle the two cards inside the library.

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

Just a reminder that we would like L2+ to wait until Friday to respond.

Sorry Josh - I looked at the Silver scenario write up first and it stated:

“Silver: Interactions that require a more detailed knowledge of the policy. These will be aimed at L1s and L2s, but again everyone is welcome to participate.”

Seeing as it was targeted to L1s and L2s I responded. My bad.

Improper drawing at start of game, with a warning penalty. As the fix, remove one card at random from the 6 in Anita's hand. Shuffle it and the card that's still face down on the table into Anita's library. Anita may take further mulligans if she chooses.

First of all, it's not DEC since it fits the criteria for IDASOG: an error was made while drawing an opening hand and the error was noticed before other game actions were taken.

If we believe that Anita properly shuffled and presented her deck, it seems a bit silly to even issue a penalty for this at all. In a properly randomized deck it doesn't matter which 6 of the top 7 cards of the library are drawn. So the obvious fix that suggests itself is to treat that face down top card as the 7th card and just put it back on top of Anita's library, without issuing any penalty. Technically, that card was never actually drawn. However, the IPG doesn't support this, and the IDASOG is the consistent ruling to give.

In my interpretation of the CR and IPG, Anita has committed a GPE-IDSG, and should receive a Warning.

To take a mulligan, a player shuffles his or her hand back into his or her library, then draws a new hand of one fewer cards than he or she had before. (CR 103.4) By taking cards from the top of her library and counting them face down she kept the cards in order. If she had then drawn 1-6 and then called JUDGE, there would be no problem,we would just put number 7 back on top of the library, but she has drawn 2-7 and the topmost card of her library is still face down on the table. A player draws a card by putting the top card of his or her library into his or her hand. (CR 120.1) I know that she hasn't seen that card yet, but she is one card deeper in his library than her mulligan should allow her to be.

I would issue the warning, and then apply the additional remedy for IDSG. From the seven cards, take two at random, place them back on top of the library and then shuffle. She may continue to take a mulligan like normal from here.

As always, remind everyone to play more carefully and give them an appropriate time extension.

*Now, if there was a fellow judge nearby, I would confer, but I would be fairly confident in making this decision based on the rules and policy I've stated.*

I've just spent about an hour trying to justify not giving the penalty. In my experience this generally means that I'm working too hard in the wrong direction. The correct thing to do here is to issue the penalty, take two cards from the hand (which includes the face down card) and shuffle them into the library.

I will admit that had this scenario come up without said hour of think time, I would have probably issued no penalty. The best justification I could come up with for this is the cutting your own deck issue. If your opponent hands you your deck and you cut it then proceed to draw your opening hand, I believe the judge should only grant a caution in this scenario since nothing material was changed. This scenario is very similar, since Anita has simply drawn randomized cards out of order.

Originally posted by Graham Theobalds:

Well the library is random and the cards unknown. Placing cards face
down is not considered drawing. I would place card 1 back on top of the
deck. She has drew 6 cards the correct amount.

Would CR120.1 change your ruling on this? :)

I kind of feel like the whole scenario is a trick question, it doesn't matter whether the 1st card should have been drawn with the others instead of the 7th, it is unknown and the order of the cards drawn doesn't matter at this point (assuming she doesn't know what that 1st card is and no cheating). I would still put it on top of her library.

EDIT:
@Andrew Teo: Despite the CR saying that you should draw a card from the top of the library, I think that applies to the standard normal state of the game. Here I think the player has, in a way, taken a shortcut. Normally, a player draws one card at a time until they have drawn 7 cards at the beginning of a game (or 6, as she should have). But she prepared her hand to be drawn all at once, she just set aside too many. She never actually drew the 7th, and needs to be put back on top. It's not in the wrong zone, it's technically still in the deck, waiting to be drawn. I think that the cards are only considered ‘drawn’ once she has seen them, and they have joined the rest of the cards she has seen / drawn. So, basically, she just rearranged the top 7 cards of her library by reversing the order, then drew cards 7-2. card 1 was was not drawn and isn't to be drawn yet, and so needs to be put back on top of the deck with the rest of the cards.

Edited Sal Cortez (Aug. 28, 2014 04:33:11 PM)

Hello,

while mathematically/statictically speaking everything is OK with that player's action (she has drawn 6 random cards and has not seen a face of any other card in her deck), from my point of view this is not an acceptable behavior and it requires a warning for improper drawing at start of game.

If a player cut her deck to half and then drew her cards from the other part of the deck, you wouldn't allow that, would you?
If a player drew every second card and shuffled the rest afterwards, you wouldn't allow that neither, would you?

What I want to be sure about is the proper remedy for this scenario. As Anita “drew” 7 cards, I would pick randomly 2, shuffle them into the deck and then let her take her mulligan decision from those 5 cards.