Here is a slight variation on a situation that came up at a recent PTQ. It raised a lot of interesting discussion between the judges when we discussed it after the event.

You are called to a table where the players explain to you that Ashley had countered Nate’s Pearl Lake Ancient, and they have just realized the mistake. The players tell you Ashley attacked with a group of tokens, and Nate flashed in the ancient to block, which Ashley countered with Dissolve. The ancient was then put in the graveyard. When you ask about the actions that occurred after that mistake, they tell you Ashley resolved two sets of looting triggers off her two copies of Jeskai Ascendancy and a scry 1. Nate took the damage from the buffed tokens. On this next turn, he draw for turn and starts to cast Dig Through Time, but when he starts paying for the spell, he realizes the ancient should not have been countered.

Question One: Should we back up here? It seems that reversing the game back all the way through the scry and loots to the point of error is going to be tricky.

Question Two: You notice that not only was the effect of Dissolve wrong (it shouldn’t have moved the spell to the graveyard) but that it was resolved the wrong time (the Ascendency triggers should have happened first). Can ignore the out of order sequencing and back up to the point the error should have happened with proper sequencing, right after the scry, when the unaffected ancient should have resolved? This is much more feasible.

Question Three: Assuming we don’t backup, (perhaps because of a fetchland or similar other problems) can we apply the partial fix for an incorrect zone change? The ancient was supposed to have moved from the stack to the battlefield, but it moved from the stack to the graveyard, so could we put it onto the battlefield?

Question Four: Clearly some game rules have been violated here. What penalties to we issue and to who?

As you noted in Question 2, things were a bit jumbled (Out of Order), but the only mistake was allowing Dissolve to counter a spell that can't be countered. The Pearl Lake Ancient is a legal target for Dissolve, so (in order of resolution), what should have happened:
JA trigger 2
JA trigger 1
Scry 1
Pearl Lake Ancient enters the battlefield.

All of that should occur before Nate declares blockers, so all that's happened since the error - i.e., the only things we'd have to back up - are Nate drawing, untapping, taking damage from unblocked tokens. Consider that before deciding whether or not to back up.

And yes, that partial fix seems to fit the criteria - an object was supposed to move between zones, it did, but it went to the wrong zone. It feels like a bit of a stretch, but I won't slap you silly if you use that instead of backing up. :)

I'd issue GRV to Ashley (it's her spell, she's responsible for resolving it correctly), and FtMGS to Nate (he should preserve the integrity of the game state by remembering his spell's text!).

d:^D

1. I don't think so. We could list out the objective steps to do it, but it is way too complicated and will not make the game better.

2. I'm unlikely to back this up. If I did, we would back up the actions as they were done, and then proceed in the correct order. Anything else is in of itself a partial fix.

3. I don't think so. This is not an incorrect zone change, this is an incorrect countering of a spell. It was “rightfully” put in the graveyard for being countered. It should not have been countered, but that is a separate problem that we're not going to backup and fix here.

4. Dissolve's controller countered a spell that cannot be countered and should receive a GRV. Pearl Lake Ancient's controller allowed Dissolve's controller to counter his spell, and should receive a FtMGS for not catching the error.

Edit - Hmmm, Uncle Scott answered while I was writing my response. My thoughts stand, so we'll see what others have to say!

Edited Evan Cherry (Feb. 23, 2015 06:25:38 PM)

EDIT : misread the question 2

Edited Théo CHENG (Feb. 24, 2015 01:51:19 AM)

For clarity, are we saying this is sequentially what ACTUALLY happened after PLA and Dissolve were cast?

Pearl lake was countered & Scry 1
Loot 1
Loot 2
Damage
Nate draws for turn
Starts casting DtT

Edited Evan Cherry (Feb. 23, 2015 06:31:53 PM)

I am curious why Nate should not also get a GRV here. This situation seems analogous to the example in the IPG with Path to Exile. In that case, A controls the Path to Exile, and B takes the incorrect action of placing the targeted creature into the graveyard rather than exile, so they both get a GRV. In this case, Ashley controls the Dissolve, but it is presumably Nate who took the physical action of putting the Pearl Lake Ancient into the graveyard incorrectly. Shouldn't he also get a GRV here?

The sequence that the players physically preformed was:
Perl Lake Ancient goes to grave yard.
Dissolve goes to graveyard.
Loot 1
Loot 2
Scry
Damage
EOT
Nate Draws
DtT

The correct sequence is:
Loot 1
Loot 2
Scry
Dissolve goes to graveyard.
Perl Lake Enters the Battle Field
Damage
Nate Draws
DtT

Firstly, thank you for framing this discussion in such a clearly defined manner. Separating the different issues really helps to organize the thread right from the beginning.

1) hahaha no.
2) This seems extremely loose, especially when we have this…
3) The option to apply a partial fix. Cases like these are why the specific “zone change” provision exists. I like it.
4) Nate has put his card into the wrong zone, GRV. Ashley actually resolved all of her effects correctly, so she only nets the FtMGS.

EDIT: Uncle Scott and others have different thinking. I'll stand by my comments for now, as this is how I'd rule on the floor.

EDIT EDIT: I don't feel especially strongly about defending the above answers; others have arrived at different conclusions with far better reasoning. I still think its useful to consider the above, if only as an option to argue against.

Edited Yonatan Kamensky (Feb. 24, 2015 11:44:15 PM)

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Yonatan Kamensky
<forum-16442-e4e8@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:
> 3) The option to apply a partial fix. Cases like these are why the specific
> “zone change” provision exists. I like it.

I don't see how this is a zone change partial fix candidate. One of
the conditions for that is that the card was meant to change zones,
but when PLA is countered it is meant to not change zones, it is to
stay on the stack. The GRV was ignoring the “can't be countered” and
making the card change zones when it shouldn't have.
We either have to backup or not, I think it's pretty close to the
don't backup line but I'd need all the cards in front of me to be sure
either way.

1: I would be ok with backing up here, to PLA on the stack, Dissolve and triggers all resolved, AP has priority during declare attackers. The presence of a fetch or other possible blockers or something might change my mind, but I think rewinding one card draw and what sounds like no other game actions isn't too big a deal.

2: The OoOS that happened here was extremely minor. A spell went to the yard before it finished resolving, and the PLA going to the yard before Dissolve actually resolved. If I were to back up, Dissolve would have just finished resolving, PLA on the stack.

3: I don't like the partial fix here. The letter of the policy wouldn't allow it because the PLA should not have changed zones while Dissolve was resolving, though I can see trying to pigeonhole this into that case because it feels like a good option. One goal of policy here is consistency, so I would be against the partial fix.

4: I see three options: GRV to AP for countering an uncounterable spell (and FtMtGS to NAP), GRV to NAP for letting their uncounterable spell get countered (and FtMtGS to AP), or double GRV. I think I would issue a double GRV here, but I could be convinced of any of the other options.

Off topic: When I saw this thread name, I thought it was Knowledge Pool for a second. I really hope they steal this name for an upcoming scenario.

I don't buy the whole “went to the wrong zone” line of thinking. In fact, it went to the RIGHT zone for something being countered (unless something would replace the ‘goes to grave’ with ‘goes to exile instead’ but that's neither here nor there). The only error here, other than OoOS, is something that couldn't be countered was.

I wouldn't back up, even though it does seem feasible, and I would give both players a GRV / warning and tell them to keep playing.

Originally posted by Robert Blanckaert:

Here is a slight variation on a situation that came up at a recent PTQ. It raised a lot of interesting discussion between the judges when we discussed it after the event.

You are called to a table where the players explain to you that Ashley had countered Nate’s Pearl Lake Ancient, and they have just realized the mistake. The players tell you Ashley attacked with a group of tokens, and Nate flashed in the ancient to block, which Ashley countered with Dissolve. The ancient was then put in the graveyard. When you ask about the actions that occurred after that mistake, they tell you Ashley resolved two sets of looting triggers off her two copies of Jeskai Ascendancy and a scry 1. Nate took the damage from the buffed tokens. On this next turn, he draw for turn and starts to cast Dig Through Time, but when he starts paying for the spell, he realizes the ancient should not have been countered.

Question One: Should we back up here? It seems that reversing the game back all the way through the scry and loots to the point of error is going to be tricky.

Question Two: You notice that not only was the effect of Dissolve wrong (it shouldn’t have moved the spell to the graveyard) but that it was resolved the wrong time (the Ascendency triggers should have happened first). Can ignore the out of order sequencing and back up to the point the error should have happened with proper sequencing, right after the scry, when the unaffected ancient should have resolved? This is much more feasible.

Question Three: Assuming we don’t backup, (perhaps because of a fetchland or similar other problems) can we apply the partial fix for an incorrect zone change? The ancient was supposed to have moved from the stack to the battlefield, but it moved from the stack to the graveyard, so could we put it onto the battlefield?

Question Four: Clearly some game rules have been violated here. What penalties to we issue and to who?

Without reading other responses…

1) I see no reason to back up through the scry and looting; PLA is a legal target for the Dissolve, it just doesn't do what they wanted. These are still legal game actions. The point of error was when PLA went to the graveyard, so everything before that stays as it is. Backing up here should entail reversing the action of casting Dig Through Time, returning a random card from Nate's (ha!) hand to the top of their library, tapping any permanents that he had tapped, and undoing the damage taken from unblocked tokens. We're in the Declare Attackers step.

2) As long as Alice didn't scry BEFORE resolving Ascendancy triggers, we can just call this OoOS. If they did otherwise they are also getting a penalty - potentially DEC, depending on what words were exchanged!

3) Potentially irrelevant since I would back up, but sure, we can apply the partial fix here.

4) Nate gets a Warning for a GRV for “resolving” PLA as a countered spell. My first instinct is to also give Alice a GRV, but I don't think that's correct - they may control the spell that caused the error, but their spell was still resolved correctly. I think Alice just gets a FTMGS.

1) I would say no due to the number of card movements and suspect that any resulting board state will be more broken than where we are.
2) OoOS seems to cover this so no issues here.
3) I don't think so because the object moving zone didn't enter the wrong zone, countered spells go to the graveyard. It shouldn't have moved at all until resolution of the PLA, it's moving on the resolution of the Dissolve.
4) Both receive GRV-GPE. Nate incorrectly takes an action based on an effect controlled by Alice, the countering of the PLA

Edited for spelling

Edited Marc Shotter (March 4, 2015 08:27:59 AM)

Originally posted by Robert Blanckaert:

Question Three: Assuming we don’t backup, (perhaps because of a fetchland or similar other problems) can we apply the partial fix for an incorrect zone change? The ancient was supposed to have moved from the stack to the battlefield, but it moved from the stack to the graveyard, so could we put it onto the battlefield?

+1 to “I don't like partial fix”.

From my understanding, this “moving to wrong zone” criteria covers (mainly) simple error such as graveyard instead of exile in PtE. (Timing is correct, just wrong zone)
In this case, it is not just simple wrong zone. It was countered instead of staying at stack. If they were correct, it stayed at stack and went to BF after that. It went to wrong zone at different timing.