Hello readers, welcome back to the Knowledge Pool! This week Nick Rutkowski has created a Bronze scenario, meaning it is designed for those new to policy. Anyone with multiple competitive events under their belt should wait until Friday to join the discussion.

The blog post for this scenario can be found here: http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2015/03/18/to-bee-or-not-to-bee/

During a Standard PPTQ you are Head Judging, Aaron activates his Whip of Erebos targeting a Hornet Queen. Aaron puts the tokens into play and attacks with the Hornet Queen. Both players record the damage and life gain, then Aaron passes the turn and exiles the Hornet Queen. Neville untaps and draws a card. He thinks for a moment, then declares his attackers, which include a Hushwing Gryff. At this point Neville realizes the Hornet Queen tokens shouldn’t exist, and calls for a judge. What do you do?

Edited Patrick Vorbroker (March 19, 2015 11:42:29 AM)

Let's start with infractions - this is a GRV for Aaron and a FtMGS for Neville, both will receive warnings.

Now for the fix - I think it's probably reasonable to backup, provided Neville doesn't have something like a fetchland available to manipulate his library. I'd have Neville place a random card from his hand back on top of his deck, tap all permanents that were tapped before his turn, and then untap the Hornet Queen and remove the tokens from play. Aaron now has priority in his precombat main phase. “Please play more carefully.”

Without looking - GPE - GRV for both players. Neville controlled the effect that should have prevented the tokens which means that he should be watching for it to come into effect, while Aaron illegally put the tokens on the field.

Seems like it is a simple enough rewind, and as it is not supported by the IPG that the tokens are just removed, as long as no things such as fetches are in play, back up, put a random card from Nevilles hand on top of his library, and bring in pack to Aarons main phase 1. Hornet queen is on the field as whips ability has already come into effect, removing the illegal tokens. Let Aaron proceed from there

GRV for Aaron for putting the Hornet tokens into play, FtMGS for Neville for not recognising the infraction. Assuming no fetches or other options for Neville to shuffle his library we should be able to back up with head judge approval. Untap Neville's attackers, return a random card to the top of his library, then tap any of his mana that was tapped. Fix Neville's life total then return the hornet queen to the battle field untapped and remove the tokens. We're in Aaron's per-combat main phase and he has priority.

Admonish both players to play more carefully.

Edit: After reading others I don't think this is a double GRV as the Hushwing changes the rules, but doesn't call for an action:

Originally posted by IPG:

If a player takes an action called for by an effect controlled by his or her opponent, but does it incorrectly, both players receive a Game Play Error

Edited Marc Shotter (March 19, 2015 03:33:33 AM)

On 19 March 2015 at 17:30, Marc Shotter
<forum-16954-a9ff@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:
> we should be able to back up with head judge approval.

A reminder that you are the head judge :)

Hehe - was trying to cover all considerations and missed I was the head judge in the original post! :)

I would issue a GRV for Aaron and a FTMGS for Neville, both will receive warnings.

As for the fix, in this situation since Neville has not taken significant changes to the board state I would back the game up to Aarons main phase one. I would have neville retap anything that was tapped and put a random card from his hand onto the top of the library. Then I would instruct Aaron to continue with his activation of Whip of Erebos Targeting Hornet Queen. Then let the game proceed from there. Advise both players to pay attention to the board state.

So smth went wrong, when Aaron put tokens into play.

IPG 2.5:
…infraction covers the majority of game situations in which a player makes an error or fails to follow a game
procedure correctly…
If the error was discovered… and the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruption to the course of the game…
…the judge may get permission from the Head Judge to back up the game to the point of the error…
…Each action taken is undone until the game reaches the point immediately prior to the error…
…In a situation where the effect that caused the infraction is controlled by one player, but the illegal action is taken by another player, both receive a Game Play Error…


This would be a Game Play Error – Game Rules Violation for Aaron and a Game Play Error – Game Rule Violation for Neville since he let Aaron put tokens into play instead of not doing that and did not point it out immediately. As the Head Judge, you decide whether or not to backup.

I think that according to IPG we should make a full back up (untap attackers, put a random card on a top of Nevill's library, return Queen to play, change life totals, remove tokens). Its better to rewind, because damage to the game state should be less after a rewind than if we left it as is.

There are a few things we need to sort out first.
Breakdown the play:

1) Aaron did not realize (most likely) the Hushwing Gryff's ability and put 4 insects token onto the battlefield as Hornet Queen come into play.
2) The game go ahead to combat phase and life total change occurred. More important, passed the turn.
3) Neville found out the issue during his own combat phase.

Infraction:
1) Aaron - GPE - GRV - Warning - Hornet Queen's ETB put insects token into play when Hushwing Gryff on battlefield.
2) Neville - GPE - FtMGS - Warning - Fail to notice illegal play from Hornet Queen's ETB.

Fix Possibility:
1) Do nothing
The problem persist and we may not want to damage the game state further.
Proceed the game.

2) Rewind
Neville puts 1 card at random back to the top of his library. Tap down mana as required to represent the previous state.
Undo damage assign and life gain from both players.
Return Hornet Queen to Aaron's graveyard, untap Whip of Erebos and remove all insects token.
*** I am not a big fan in this option, but this maybe needed.
*** Possible rewind to the point of Hornet Queen came into play.

GRV for Aaron, FTMGS for Neville.

I think it's been too long to rewind the game. A full turn cycle has passed. Had this been caught on the same turn, I'd consider backing it up. However I'd leave the board as-is.

GRV for Aaron, FTMGS for Neville.

Remove tokens and continue play according to additional remedy found here:

• If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players,
and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.

Originally posted by Christopher Melson:

GPE - GRV for Aaron, FTMGS for Neville

Us additional remedy described here:

If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players,
and it is within a turn of the error, put the object in the correct zone.

Thus, remove the tokens and continue play.

I'm confused on the emphasized part. No object that changed zone was put into a wrong zone. an ability triggered that shouldn't have. And I don't like just removing the tokens, that isn't supported by the IPG. What if, thinking he had blockers attacked with other creatures, in this scenario he doesn't, but we need to be consistent.

On another note, I viewed this as Double GRV. as N controlled the replacement effect that would have prevented the tokens coming into play. Yet many others view this as FtMGS. Can someone explain their reasoning more?

I went FTMGS, because Aaron didn't actually take an action called for by an effect of Neville (if he had then there wouldn't have been an error.)

Originally posted by Ben Yan Hao Tai:

Neville puts 1 card at random back to the top of his library. Tap down mana as required to represent the previous state.
Undo damage assign and life gain from both players.
Return Hornet Queen to Aaron's graveyard, untap Whip of Erebos and remove all insects token.
*** I am not a big fan in this option, but this maybe needed.
*** Possible rewind to the point of Hornet Queen came into play.

As you noted in the end, if you were to rewind, you would want to rewind to Hornet Queen in play. Going all the way back to before the activation goes beyond the last legal point in the game. We would want Hornet Queen in play with the etb trigger on the stack.

For those of you wishing to rewind, how many points are we rewinding through and how much has actually happened in the game? I'm not necessarily saying a backup is incorrect, but it seems like a lot of you are willing to jump to it rather quickly. Is it important that we are rewinding a draw step? How about a combat phase? What about two combat phases? (Okay really closer to 1.5)

Originally posted by Jarrod Feight:

We would want Hornet Queen in play with the etb trigger on the stack.

I'd say that if you rewind, you should rewind to Hornet Queen in play, but no trigger in this case -because of Hushwing Gryff.