Welcome back to the Knowledge Pool! This week's scenario is Silver, so if you're an L2 please wait until Friday before flexing your policy muscles. Please note that this scenario takes place at an event using the new IPG, which was released a few days ago and can be found here: http://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_ipg_27mar15_en.pdf

The blog post for this scenario is here: http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2015/03/25/a-rushin-into-trouble/

You're watching the last match of round 3 of a Dragons of Tarkir/Fate Reforged Limited PPTQ. Anna controls Champion of Arashin and Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, while Nalick controls no creatures. On her turn, Anna casts Arashin Foremost, points at her Champion of Arashin and says, “Both triggers on champion,” then attacks with the Champion of Arashin and Anafenza. Nalick looks at his hand for a few seconds before saying, “No Blocks.” Anna says, "Ok, so you take eight… no wait, ten! I didn't put the bolster counter on champion!” Nalick looks at you and says, “Judge, how does that work?”

What do you do?

Let me give this a shot:

Anafenza creates a trigger which changes the physical gamestate. Anna acknowledges this trigger and chooses which creature to bolster but fails to take accompanied physical action.
As acknowledgement of the trigger occurred but the accompanied physical action did not occur (nor did explicit declaration of the nature of the trigger) this is a missed trigger. As it is beyond the phase in which the trigger occurred, it is skipped, players are instructed to continue playing.

I belive John hit the nail on the head here. Previously we would have allowed Nalick to choose whether or not place the trigger on the stack, but due to recent policy update that is no longer the case and the trigger is simply missed. No penalty to either player.

AP acknowledged their trigger, and although they failed to put some kind of physical marker to represent the +1/+1 counter (not necessarily required, although highly suggested) as well as fumbled with the damage, I think they corrected themselves quickly enough to say they did not miss the trigger. I would, however, be careful in how I respond to the players, simply to avoid coaching.

I would explain that AP has acknowledged awareness of their trigger within a reasonable amount of time (when it has a visible effect on the game state, ie amount of damage), have the player put a die or otherwise represent the counter, and have them move on. No penalty, and I would not consider this any sort of fix or backup, just put a die on the card to represent the counter that was already there.

This is a GPE - Missed trigger. Even though Anna acknowledged the trigger, she must've also taken physical action (putting a counter on her Champion) before taking any other actions. Since adding a counter to Anna's creature is unlikely detrimental to her, no Warning is issued. Nalick is not required to control his opponent's triggers and physical actions tied to them, so no infraction for him here. I would advise Anna to be careful next time and not forget to put the counter after announcing the trigger. No changes to game state at this point, Nalick takes 8.

Edit: typos

Edited Dmitry Supranovich (March 26, 2015 03:20:08 AM)

Based on Anna's statements, it seems that the counter was actually forgotten, and not “both players understand it's there, but they just neglected to put a die or glass bead or something on the card”. I'd want to ask a couple of questions to make sure of this, but this is my assumption based on the scenario as given. If this assumption turns out to be incorrect: no infraction, no penalty, carry on, but I stay around long enough to verify that combat is correctly resolved.

Given that, this is a Missed Trigger for the bolster trigger: “The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken (…) is.” and this was not done before moving to combat, even though the existence of the trigger was pointed out. The double strike trigger was properly acknowledged because it doesn't cause a physical change in game state. It will only affect combat damage later.

Penalty: none, because the trigger is not generally considered detrimental.

Fix: Nalick gets to choose whether the trigger still goes on the stack. Considering the trigger in question, he is not very likely to allow this at a competitive event. If he does, then the counter is put on the champion after the first combat damage step's damage is dealt, since the players have already proceeded to that step and the trigger doesn't resolve until after combat damage is dealt. The counter will be present for the second combat damage step.

The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the
action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions

Isn't announcing the choice made for the bolster trigger enough in this case?

Originally posted by Jonas Drieghe:

The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the
action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions

Isn't announcing the choice made for the bolster trigger enough in this case?

I don't think so, putting a counter is a physical action that is required here… Otherwise, if a trigger would tap a creature, for example, would it be OK to acknowledge a trigger and not tap a creature?

Originally posted by Dzmitry Supranovich:

Jonas Drieghe

The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the
action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions

Isn't announcing the choice made for the bolster trigger enough in this case?

I don't think so, putting a counter is a physical action that is required here… Otherwise, if a trigger would tap a creature, for example, would it be OK to acknowledge a trigger and not tap a creature?

The rule states that you need to either take the appropriate physical action OR make it clear what the action taken is. If you are correct, this rule is horribly ambiguous :)

Originally posted by Dzmitry Supranovich:

This is a GPE - Missed trigger. Even though Anna acknowledged the trigger, she must've also taken physical action (putting a counter on her Champion) before taking any other actions. Since adding a counter to Anna's creature is unlikely detrimental to her, no Warning is issued. Nalick is not required to control his opponent's triggers and physical actions tied to them, so no infraction for him here. I would advise Anna to be careful next time and not forget to put the counter after announcing the trigger. No changes to game state at this point, Nalick takes 8.

Edit: typos

I apologise for nitpicking, and maybe I'm blind, but no matter how I look at the cards, it's either 6 damage with double strike or 8 damage bolstered and double strike. Why does the scenario say 8 or 10? Am I missing something?

Other than that, I'm struggling a bit with this, because Anna clearly said “I didn't put the bolster counter”, which, based on the new IPG would be a missed trigger, on the other hand, she did say “both triggers” too.

I think I'm going with missed trigger since (most importantly) a) she did not take the physical action and b) there seems to be scenario after every IPG update that tests if we've read it :) => GPE-Missed trigger, usually not detrimental, so no Warning, 8 damage.

Edit: missed that both creatures are attacking

Edited István Fejér (March 26, 2015 06:22:59 AM)

Originally posted by István Zoltán Fejér:

I apologise for nitpicking, and maybe I'm blind, but no matter how I look at the cards, it's either 6 damage with double strike or 8 damage bolstered and double strike. Why does the scenario say 8 or 10? Am I missing something?

Anafenza attacks as well, which accounts for 2 damage you missed :)

Anna has not taken the appropriate physical action which would be to place a +1/+1 therefore this fits the second definition of a missed trigger. I believe the additional clauses here would allow a game to continue while acquiring dice/tokens etc. In this instance adding the counter was clearly forgotten.

End result would be, no penalties, 8 damage, no changes to the game state and advice to be more careful.

Edit - comments on above (Anafenza damage issue) removed

Edited Marc Shotter (March 26, 2015 06:38:36 AM)

I'm still having trouble ruling missed trigger for a trigger that was clearly announced and for which a choice was made upon resolution. I understand that it is part of the new policy, but that doesn't make very logical :)

Edited Jonas Drieghe (March 26, 2015 06:58:16 AM)

Originally posted by Jonas Drieghe:

I'm still having trouble ruling missed trigger for a trigger that was clearly announced and for which a choice was made upon resolution.

I'm similarly troubled, and I'm really looking forward to following this discussion to help me understand the new policy better.

Which I'm sure is the intent of this week's scenario in the first place :-).

I'm having trouble seeing where the line goes. In this scenario, it seems to have been forgotten as the player stated that it was forgotten. So here, we'd have GPE - Missed trigger, no warning as the trigger isn't detrimental.

But would this situation have been judged differently if the case was instead that Anna tried to keep a good pace on the game and search for a die after declaring attackers, or possibly after passing the turn? If everything happens in a fluid motion, it isn't trivial to me where Out-of-order-sequencing becomes a missed trigger.