Welcoming to another week of the Knoweldge Pool! This time around we have a Silver scenario, which means that we would like L2+ judges to wait until after their local FNMs to reply.

Here is the blog post and the scenario itself:

You are watching Angela and Nefertiti play their match in a Standard GPT. Angela controls Myth Realized with 2 counters represented by a die. She casts Divination, grabs two cards off the top of her library, taps a Plains, rolls her die to 3, and declares Myth Realized as an attacking creature. Nefertiti looks up at you and says, “Judge? Didn't she miss that trigger?”

What do you do?

I'd rule out-of-order sequencing. It reads as if this occurred in one block of actions and the same board state exists had she followed the correct order of sequences. I'd explain that with magic as complex as it is we would prefer it to be played organically rather then as a robot announcing every individual action at every precise moment as long as no advantage can be gained. No penalties.

The trigger in question is one that creates a visible change in the game state, putting a lore counter onto Myth Realized. It would only be considered missed if the controlling player took an action such as casting another sorcery or moving phases that could only be taken after the trigger should have resolved. It's completely possible to activate the third ability on Myth Realized with its first ability still on the stack, and then move to combat after both abilities resolve. Yeah, technically it's incorrect to grab the 2 cards from Divination before putting on the lore counter, but it doesn't seem like any information is gained by doing this out of order. I would rule no missed trigger and no infraction.

Bonus: It doesn't matter that Myth Realized only had 2 counters when it became a creature, it will be a 3/3 when attacking because its third ability constantly checks and updates its power and toughness based on how many lore counters it currently has.

Any constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated.

I would rule GPE- Missed Trigger for Angela with no penalty as Myth Realized trigger is not typically detrimental to its controller and give Nefertiti the option to place the trigger on the stack.

I do not feel that OoOs would work due to my findings stating “OoOS doesn’t let you retroactively take an action you missed or forgot to do at the appropriate time. In other words, it’s not a “get out of jail free” card.” I feel this describes our situation very well.

The stack is Divination and then Myth Realized trigger on top and by resolving Divination Angela failed to show recognition of Myth Realized triggered ability. I believe that placing a counter on an object would be “a change in the visible game state” so it would fall under Missed Trigger.

IPG- A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly
moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.

@Mcrae we want that game to flow naturally and allow for blocks of actions to be taken even if not in the correct order. It's why we allow tree top village to be activated as an attacker during the declare attackers step even if it's not technically allowed. What we don't want is people to abuse this by say having an upkeep trigger with a cost paid. then drawing their card then taking notice of the ability because that card will very likely influence if they want to pay that cost or not. But in situations like this where it's just a single block of actions and there is very little to be gained we tend to allow it.

As a side note since we can not take board state into consideration myth realized's trigger will always be considered beneficial even if for some reason Angela would want a weaker creature.

Edited Walker Metyko (April 1, 2015 11:34:57 PM)

I would let the player know that this falls under out of order sequencing and explain how that works if need be, then have them continue their game.

According to the missed trigger description, “The controller must take the appropriate physical action … before taking any game actions … that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Since Angela can't take two cards until after Myth's trigger is resolved, GPE - Missed Trigger was committed.

But we also need to take into account out-of-order sequencing possibility:
It is hard to say whether Nefertiti allowed Divination to resolve, or did Angela perform her actions in such quick succession that he didn't have time to respond. She moved hastily from her precombat main phase to declare attackers step, and Nefertiti gained knowledge that Angela is going to attack with Myth Realized. What if Nefertiti wanted to counter Divination after learning Angela will attack with Myth Realized? What if Nefertiti had Shock in her hand and could destroy Myth Realized if Angela activated Myth's ability before the trigger resolved? ”An out-of-order sequence must not result in a player prematurely gaining information which could reasonably affect decisions made later in that sequence." Then again, in that case she has already drawn cards from Divination without Nefertiti's confirmation, which is Drawing Extra Cards…

In this case, I would make sure that Nefertiti didn't want to or had reasonable time to respond to Divination to rule out Drawing Extra Cards. Even though out-of-order sequencing could technically affect Nefertiti's decisions if she wanted to act, in this particular case based on information given, I would rule out-of-order sequencing, tell Nefertiti that she can request that Angela takes actions in the correct sequence if she wants to respond. If not, let the game proceed with no infractions given.

Originally posted by Mcrae Hott:

I do not feel that OoOs would work due to my findings stating “OoOS doesn’t let you retroactively take an action you missed or forgot to do at the appropriate time. In other words, it’s not a “get out of jail free” card.” I feel this describes our situation very well.

So, keeping that in mind, in what situations would you apply OOOS?

Even though we have a new clarification on the IPG, telling us that failing to make the visible change to the board is now missing a trigger, this case looks to me much more like an OoOS, and the fact that th AP tapped a plains, doesn`t mean by itself that he activated the abilitie, the AP could have added the mana to the pool with a trigger she believed was on the stack, resolved the trigger, then activated the abilitie (although we know this trigger wasn`t on the stack, but I believe this is what OoOS is about, protecting the player who doesn`t understand the minutiae of the game).

Edited Thiago Perígolo Souza (April 2, 2015 09:49:06 AM)

Originally posted by Bartłomiej Wieszok:

Mcrae Hott
I do not feel that OoOs would work due to my findings stating “OoOS doesn’t let you retroactively take an action you missed or forgot to do at the appropriate time. In other words, it’s not a “get out of jail free” card.” I feel this describes our situation very well.

So, keeping that in mind, in what situations would you apply OOOS?

Situations in which to apply OoOS is a great discussion to have, but let's try to stay on topic at this time. :)

I would rule OoOS on this as well. Extra information was gained by A when they drew the 2 cards from divination. I would ask N if they wished to put the trigger on the stack, remind A when Myth Realised triggered and tell them in the future to announce their triggers prior to taking other actions, and issue no infraction.

Originally posted by Dustin Jones:

Situations in which to apply OoOS is a great discussion to have, but let's try to stay on topic at this time. :)

I think it was on topic, not clearly but my point was - if we can't apply OOOS there, going with Mcrae line, we wouldn't be able to apply OOOS anywhere else to be honest.

As for that scenario - clear OOOS, even under new changes.

This just seems like straightforward OOOS. To confirm, I'd check to see in what phase the second ability of Myth Realized was activated. If we had moved to Beginning Of Combat, then I'd contemplate the idea of it being a Missed Trigger.

Before reading other responses -

While it's almost never OOoS in Knowledge Pool, this situation seems like textbook Out of Order Sequencing on Angela's part. Angela took a set of actions, all as one block. These actions were technically illegal in the order they were performed, but they arrived at the same legal end state. No infraction and no penalty for either player.

If Nefertiti is unclear on what happened, or wants to respond at some point, she can request that the actions be taken in the correct order.

After reading other responses -

There's a bit of debate on whether this is Out of Order Sequencing or a Missed Trigger.

Yes, technically, Angela took an action after the first time she should have resolved Myth Realized's trigger. But, the whole point of OOoS is the “yes, technically” situations. Within her block of actions - casting Divination, resolving Divination, activating Myth Realized, attacking with Myth Realized, and resolving Myth Realized's trigger - she accomplished all necessary tasks, and she did it as a single block of actions. No other action (outside of the block) was taken before she resolved her trigger.

I would start by asking Angela if she forgot about the trigger when she casted divination.
That kind of situation happens quite often and players usually seem to answer this question honestly. I know this because they often tell me they forgot the trigger and remembered it a bit too late.

If she did forget the trigger, I would rule that the trigger is missed.

If she tells me she did not, I would ask more questions and try to assess the flow of the game.
Was she playing super fast because of the time limit? - Then I would rule OOOS

Was she thinking every move carefully, analysing the cards that she drew, passing priority and waiting for her opponent's response every time? - That's another story…