Hello everyone! Welcome to another week of the Knowledge Pool! This week, we bring you another Silver scenario - Thalia's Chalice. L2+ Judges, you know the drill, please wait until Friday before chipping in to allow the L1's a chance to discuss and mull over the scenario.

The blog post can be found here: http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2015/04/08/thalias-chalice/

Happy posting!
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You’re the HJ of a Legacy GPT. Ashe and Norman have recently started their match, and Norman has a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and a Chalice of the Void with one counter on it under his control. On her turn, Ashe pays 1 and casts a Pithing Needle. The following exchange happens:

Norman : “So, Chalice counters that?”
Ashe: “Oh shoot, forgot about it… yeah.”
Ashe puts the Needle into her graveyard, then looks at the board.
Ashe: “Hey, wait, you have a Thalia in play… I couldn’t have cast my Needle!”

JUDGE!

After talking to both players, you determine that Norman was too focused on the fact that the Chalice countered the Needle, and he didn’t notice that Ashe had only paid one mana for it. Ashe simply forgot the Thalia was on the battlefield.

What do you do?

My first thought was that this is a GPE:GRV for Ashe and GPE:FtMGS for Norman, but upon rereading, I've decided this fits a double GRV–though Ashe is the one who took the illegal action, Norman is the one who controls Thalia and Chalice, and as explained under the rules for GPE:GRV, “In a situation where the effect that caused the infraction is controlled by one player, but the illegal action is taken by another player, both receive a Game Play Error – Game Rule Violation. ”

Both players will receive a Warning–as far as a rewind goes, nothing truly impactful has happened since the error was caught, so it's safe to put the Pithing Needle back into Ashe's hand, and her land is untapped.

I agree with Jeremy's solution except I wouldn't allow a rewind. Knowing that Ashe has a Needle in hand is fairly advantageous to Norman (despite having a Chalice that would counter it), so I would let it sit in the yard. Since he knows that it's in her hand, he may attempt to play around it in order to get use out of his utility creatures/other permanents.

Originally posted by James Edwards:

Knowing that Ashe has a Needle in hand is fairly advantageous to Norman (despite having a Chalice that would counter it), so I would let it sit in the yard. Since he knows that it's in her hand, he may attempt to play around it in order to get use out of his utility creatures/other permanents.

From the Comp. Rules:

“717.1 If a player realizes that he or she can’t legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn’t reversed.”

It's unfortunate that both players' combined mistakes lead to Ashe revealing the identity of a card in her hand–however, that's a consequence of the errors made. Your concern is that Norman may derive an advantage from Ashe's error–either way, he's going to gain an advantage. The Pithing Needle is either in Ashe's graveyard, meaning that he no longer has to play around it, or it's in her hand, and he is aware that it is and has the ability to play around it. Which of these two advantages sounds LEAST advantageous to you? :)

Ashe recives a GPE-GRV for casting the pithing needle. I feel like it was called over quickly enough that a FtMGS is not warrented . This is not a double GRV since Thalia is a passive ability that changes the games rules, And the double grv clause is designed for when both players are actively involved. I have no problem rewinding to the last time the game was legal which is right before Ashe casts pithing needle. Put it back in his hand and untap his land.

It seems like this is GPE-GRV for Ashe (cast Needle not realizing Thalia is in play)and FtMGS for Nathan (also not noticing immediately that Thalia is in play and let the opponent make a mistake). I would back up to before the Needle was cast.

Edited István Fejér (April 9, 2015 05:23:23 PM)

I would rule double-GRV for both players, Warning for AP for not paying the extra 1 and a Warning for NAP for not keeping track of their Thalia.

This is an easy back-up, and I would do so. I would rewind whatever they used to pay the 1 mana and back up the game to the point where AP has priority just before they tried to cast the Needle.

I think if AP had enough mana to pay for the needle I would rewind the game to the payment of the needle then put it on the stack and let the game continue from there.

There is also the concern of the information NAP gained from the botched casting of Pithing Needle, but there's not much you can really do about that, and I don't think it's enough to warrent not backing up. There are no forked avenues that AP could take instead of casting the Pithing Needle (which they can't do anyway, not enough mana to cast it). Their only choice is to cast a creature that costs 1 or pass turn.

Information gained only matters if rewinding the game would present the player with a different line of play that they might not have taken without the information gained from backing up the game in the first place. In this case, the line of play they tried was not something they could have done anyway, and still cannot do, so worrying about them taking a different route is a moot point.

Think of it like we're the Time Police and we don't want people going back in time and changing a bet they had to a winning team ;)

Seems a GRV for Ashe (casting a spell for the incorrect cost) and a FtMGS for Norman (allowing the incorrect casting). I'd backup to before the casting of Pithing Needle (untapping whatever was paid) with Ashe having priority.

I'm not convinced that we can ignore the FtMGS as Norman was clearly allowing the incorrect casting.
Double GRV doesn't apply as there was not an action required by Norman's Thalia it simply changed the game rules.
I wouldn't back us up into the middle of casting a spell (this creates either a situation where Ashe can't pay for a spell already on the stack and an endless error, or is forced into tapping more mana - neither of which I'm happy with).

Looks to me as a GpE - GRV for Ashe for casting a spell paying an incorrect cost, and therefore GpE - FtMtGS to Nathan who allowed it. Warnings for both players, the backup looks safe to me (return Needle to Ashe's hand and untap the land).

GPE - GRV for Ashe for illegally casting her pithing needle for 1 mana, rather than the required two mana that it should have required.
GPE - FtMGS for Nathan who let Ashe cast the spell for one mana. Nathan didnt call a judge on his opponent or even notice the mistake until Ashe caught it, so I believe that it is FtMGS.
The fix: Ashe took an action she cannot legally take, so we should back up to the moment before the mistake. Return the pithing needle to Ashe's hand and give Ashe the 1 mana back (however she cast it, adding it to her mana pool or untapping her land, the scenerio wasnt specific about how the mana got into her pool).

After looking at the other answers there's been some muttering about this being a double GRV because Nathan has an ability that he allowed Ashe to follow incorrectly. However double GRV only applies when, and im going to steal from the annotated IPG because their wording here is incredible, there is an active ability that was misinterpreted. Ex swords to plowshares, warpworld, things of that sort. Thalia has an ability that alters how players can cast their spells and doesn't make them preform a specific action.

This is a GRV+warning for Ashe, and a FTMGS+warning for Norman. As others have noted, this is not a double-GRV: Thalia's static ability changes the rules of the game; it isn't an active instruction to do something (the way Swords to Plowshares is actively instructing a player to do something).

The only thing that causes me to hesitate about backing up here is that Ashe is now very likely to not cast Pithing Needle at all, knowing that it will just be countered by Norman's Chalice. (If we back up, we have to back up to before the point of the error - i.e. with the Pithing Needle in Ashe's hand, and Ashe's mana untapped.)

Ideally, back-ups don't change any decisions made by the players (other than correcting the error).

Originally posted by IPG 1.4:

A
good backup will result in a situation where the gained information makes no difference and the line of play remains
the same (excepting the error, which has been fixed).

Norman hasn't made any play decisions in this scenario, but Ashe now has the option to make an entirely different decision. On the other hand, no new information had been revealed over the course of this action (yes, Ashe had forgotten about Norman's Chalice and is now aware of it, but technically this is information that was public already - it's not like Norman played a hidden counterspell from hand to stop the Needle or something).

I feel like you could go either way, here, and reasonable judges could disagree over whether to back up or not. Which is “worse”: The extra untapped mana that Ashe has from improperly casting Needle, or letting Ashe get a “take-back” of a play mistake, and potentially play something else?

In the end, I would probably still back up: Between the point of the error and the judge call, no hidden information was revealed, and no play decisions were made (other than the action that caused the error in the first place). Both players are responsible for the game state, so as judge I'm not responsible for the minor “information leak” of reminding Ashe about the Chalice in the process.

Before reading other responses:

There are 2 points of error, here. First, Ashe cast Pithing Needle for {1}, when it costs {2} due to Thalia. Then, Chalice of the Void incorrectly triggered and resolved. As these errors have the same root cause (forgetting Thalia), we'll treat them as a single issue. Additionally, Norman did not catch Ashe's error, and Ashe didn't catch Norman's, until everything resolved.

Ashe has committed a GPE - GRV, and Norman a GPE - FtMGS. Both will receive a Warning. Now, for the fix -

I'm inclined to perform a rewind here. This was a very short sequence of actions, with no library manipulation, and very few decision points. To perform the rewind, We'll return the Pithing Needle from Graveyard to Hand, and untap the land Ashe used to pay for the Needle. The game is now in Main Phase 1 or 2 (depending on where the game was before we rewound), Ashe's turn, Ashe's priority. Instruct the players to be careful, and continue play.


After reading other responses:

Other judges have done a great job of explaining why this is GRV + FtMGS, not Double-GRV.

It's probably worth remembering that we don't consider the strategic implications when we choose to back up or not. We don't consider who gets an advantage - we only consider how disruptive it will be to the game state. Whether we feel that this backup would give an advantage to Norman (who now has information about a card in Ashe's hand), or give an advantage to Ashe (who gets a free do-over with the Chalice she had forgotten about), it doesn't matter.

Also, apparently I need to review spellcasting a bit more - Thalia causes noncreature spells to be more expensive, but she does not change their CMC while on the stack, so Chalice should still trigger.

I suppose that's fair. I just prefer avoiding rewinds because they can get messy sometimes :p

Originally posted by Jeremy Fain:

James Edwards
Knowing that Ashe has a Needle in hand is fairly advantageous to Norman (despite having a Chalice that would counter it), so I would let it sit in the yard. Since he knows that it's in her hand, he may attempt to play around it in order to get use out of his utility creatures/other permanents.

From the Comp. Rules:

“717.1 If a player realizes that he or she can’t legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn’t reversed.”

It's unfortunate that both players' combined mistakes lead to Ashe revealing the identity of a card in her hand–however, that's a consequence of the errors made. Your concern is that Norman may derive an advantage from Ashe's error–either way, he's going to gain an advantage. The Pithing Needle is either in Ashe's graveyard, meaning that he no longer has to play around it, or it's in her hand, and he is aware that it is and has the ability to play around it. Which of these two advantages sounds LEAST advantageous to you? :)

Along with most others, I'm in the GRV/FtMGS camp. Ashe erred in casting Needle for {1}, Norman didn't catch it. Warnings for both.

As to the fix, I don't think that 717.1 applies here. In my mind, that paragraph is talking about a scenario where Ashe or Norman immediately notices the incorrect cost and nothing else has happened. Once the game moves past the point where the spell is cast - as it has in this scenario where Chalice has triggered and that trigger has resolved - I think we are definitely into the standard “only backup if leaving things alone results in a game state that is worse than the backup” territory.

In this case, I would say that this is a bad candidate for a backup. Doing so gives Ashe the opportunity for whole new lines of play and the IPG 1.4 specifically says that backups should avoid new lines of play. I would leave the game state as is with Needle in the graveyard.

Ashe paid the wrong amount of mana to cast her Pithing Needle, so she receives a warning for GPE-GRV. Norman forgot to point this error out at the appropriate time, so he gets a warning for GPE-FtMGS.

The question is whether or not to back the game up. It seems to me that we should. The error happened such a short time ago, and we don't even have to rewind through any dicey things like card draws or declaring attacks. Sure Ashe now knows not to run out her needle into getting countered by the chalice, but which player stands to benefit from the backup shouldn't affect the decision. I would simply return the Pithing Needle to Ashe's hand and untap the land she used to pay for it. No need to get anyone else's approval, because we are the head judge in this scenario.