Greetings Judges! Welcome back for a new edition of Knowledge Pool! This week, we bring you a brand new Bronze Scenario!

As a reminder, Bronze level scenarios are targeted at Level 1 judges who are just starting to learn the Infraction Procedure Guide (IPG). We normally give a time frame for more experienced judges to wait before answering, but with a Bronze scenario, we feel that slightly different guidelines are necessary. If you have read the IPG more than a few times or you have seen this situation at an event you have worked, please refrain from answering to give those that have not a chance to answer and discuss the scenario. After the conclusion of your local FNM, then we invite you to join the conversation! Thank you and good luck!

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2015/04/22/i-have-made-fire/

You are the Head, and only, Judge at a Theros/Khans of Tarkir Standard Grand Prix Trial. Nilva controls three white Soldier 1/1 tokens. At the end of Arridor’s turn, Nilva casts Stoke the Flames by tapping his three tokens and a Mountain and targets Arridor. Arridor and Nilva mark the life total changes on their life pads and Nilva puts the Stoke the Flames in his graveyard. Arridor looks at his hand, then at the board, and then realizes that Nilva could not cast Stoke the Flames and did not have another red source available and calls a judge.

What do you do?

Edited George FitzGerald (April 22, 2015 07:03:00 PM)

I am a brand new l1 and first time posting. I feel as we are still in the ap end step and turn has not past, issue the nap a warning and back the game up to right before nap cast the spell. This would be less detrimental then the ap loosing the four life which could have big implications latter in the game. . If the turn had past you would leave it and issue both a warning for gpe grv.
Please let me know if I am off on this and thank you in advance.


A.J. Reimann
Hobby Invasion
919-963-1336
Hobbyinvasion.com

Originally posted by A.J. Reimann:

I am a brand new l1 and first time posting. I feel as we are still in the ap end step and turn has not past, issue the nap a warning and back the game up to right before nap cast the spell. This would be less detrimental then the ap loosing the four life which could have big implications latter in the game. . If the turn had past you would leave it and issue both a warning for gpe grv.
Please let me know if I am off on this and thank you in advance.

A.J.
What is the “status” of the spell when both players mark the change on life totals?
When was the first oportunity for AP to notice the mistake?
In what conditions do we apply GRVs for both players?

Edited Thiago Perígolo Souza (April 22, 2015 11:39:38 PM)

If I had been called over to this table to judge on this matter I would have seen the following:

• Stoke the Flames in the graveyard
  
• Life totals on both player's notepads showing the loss of life
  

The ruling for me would be:

• GPE - GRV - Warning for NAP (Nilva) - for incorrect casting of Stoke the Flames
  
• GPE - FTMGS - Warning for AP (Arridor) - for marking the life total change before noticing the illegal casting
  

Since no additional time has passed and the game state is repairable, I would also apply the following fixes:

• Remove the 4 life loss caused by damage to AP (Arridor)
  
• Return Stoke the Flames to NAP (Nilva)'s hand
  
• Untap the three White 1/1 Soldiers and the Mountain that were used to cast the Stoke the Flames
  

Additionally, depending on how players explained the matter, I would potentially downgrade the GPE - FTMGS Warning into a Caution seeing as the AP called for the Judge as soon as they possibly could.

The rulings I would provide are

• Warning for GPE - GRV for Nilva - Payed for Stoke the Flames illegally
  
• Warning for GPE - FtMGS for Arridor - Did not notice the error immediately
  

Nilva's error is completely in line with one of the examples of a GRV from the IPG, so that is less debatable

EXAMPLES
A. A player casts Wrath of God for 3W (actual cost 2WW).

Nilva used R and convoke with 3 white creatures to pay for a 2RR spell, which is not a legal option. The spell has been cast with improper mana.

Since Nilva is being assessed a GRV, we have to look and see if Arridor has committed Failure to Maintain Game State. The relevant section of the IPG is

A player allows another player in the game to commit a Game Play Error, and does not point it out immediately.

Arridor caught the error quickly, but as evidenced by him adjusting life totals and allowing the spell to finish resolving he did not catch it immediately. I am inclined to apply a FtMGS here, but I would not be surprised if a more experienced judge told me that this was immediate enough to not assess this penalty. I would appreciate hearing more on this since the rest of the case seems clear cut.

For resolution, the situation does not fit any of the specific remedies for a GRV, so our remaining options are to either back the game up or leave it as it is. Since nothing else has happened since the spell was incorrectly cast, I would untap Nilva's Mountain and 3 soldiers, return Stoke the Flames to Nilva's hand, and restore Arridor's life total from the Stoke damage. I would remind the players to be careful about how they pay for their spells in the future as well.

Another question: if Nilva has another untapped red source available, would it be more reasonable to back up to the point where the spell is being cast and force a legal payment?

Edited Matthew At Lee (April 23, 2015 07:52:57 AM)

I would issue GPE-GRV for non-active player. I am leaning away from also giving FtMGS for active player for two reasons. First, because no game action has been taken other than both players passing priority. Secondly because there is little to no advantage for AP to gain.

I am not completely clear on how we are supposed to handle FtMGS in this situation, but it seems that the players are making a good faith effort to alert a judge before advantage can be reasonably gained. This is the behavior we are trying to promote by enforcing Failure to Maintain Game State in general. I feel that giving the warning here has the oposite effect.

In either case I would back up to just before NAP cast Stoke the Flames.

Warning- GPE for Nivala

Warning-FtMGS for Arridor, since he allowed the spell to resolve before noting the error ('immediately' catching the error would be catching the error when stoke was cast, not after it has resolved). We know that he has allowed the spell to resolve because he has noted the life-total change on his scorepad. While it is tempting to be lenient about issuing this infraction, the fact that the error was caught ‘quickly, but not immediately’ should not influence the issuing of this infraction. Since the error in the gamestate was allowed to persist, even for a short time, Arridor gets FtMGS.

Remedy: Firstly, there are no partial fixes that apply to this situation. Our options are either to rewind (which we can authorize as the HJ), or leave the gamestate as it is. In this case, no significant decisions have been made based on the incorrect gamestate, and no unknown information has been revealed while the damaged gamestate existed (in essence, the error was caught immediately after stoke resolved, before priority has even passed). As such, this is a pretty safe situation to rewind back to right before the casting of Stoke the Flames, which is performed by returning stoke to Nivala's hand, untapping the mountain and 3 soldier tokens that were used to cast it, and correcting Arridor's life total.

Edited Andrew Keeler (April 23, 2015 05:10:08 PM)

GPE-FtMGS warning for AP and GPE-GRV warning for NP. Back up the game to when NP had priority before casting Stoke the Flames.

Thank you every body for your participation in this week's Knowledge Pool.

In this scenario, Nilva has cast Stoke the Flames with an incorrect cost and lacks the second red mana source or a red creature to tap via Convoke to pay for the spell. Nilva has committed Game Play Error - Game Rule Violation and will receive a Warning. The mistake should then be fixed with a back-up of everything that happened until just prior to the casting of the Stoke the Flames. Revert Arridor's lifetotal to the previous total, untap the three tokens and the single Mountain, and return Stoke the Flames to Nilva's hand. While it is always up to the judge's discretion, we do not feel that enough happened after the error for Arridor to receive Game Play Error - Failure to Maintain Game State because he has pointed out the error in a reasonable amount of time. If Arridor had allowed Nilva to continue to untap and start his turn, or take other actions before pointing out the error, then we would assess Failure to Maintain Game State to Arridor. Instruct the players to continue playing, issue an appropriate length time extension if the ruling took more than a minute, and record the penalty on the match slip.

Stay tuned for the next Knowledge Pool scenario!

Edited Patrick Vorbroker (April 29, 2015 09:08:04 AM)