Hello dear judges.
Adam is playing with Norman at PPTQ. Adam casts Violent Outburst, resolves cascade exiling a few cards including Living End that casts and resolves, and finally resolves Violent Outburst. After two turns Adam calls a judge because on resolution of cascade ability he put exiled cards in the graveyard instead of on bottom of the library. What would you do if:
a) Both players agree 100% on what cards where placed in the wrong zone.
b) They don´t agree at all.
c) They agree on every card except one.

What would u do Regular REL?
Cheers,
Javier.

Unfortunately it's too late to make a change, if they disagree at all and or if his library has been changed or scry shuffle.
GRV GPE to Adam
GRV failure to maintain to Norman.

“After two turns” generally translates (from Playerian into Judgish) as “We've moved too far at this point to rewind, so we're going to leave things as they are; please pay careful attention to the game state.” And yes, Game Play Errors for both - GRV for Adam, FtMGS for Norman.

d:^D

I'm a little confused by the situation that you described. Based on the context, it sounds like the cards from Violent Outburst were dumped into the graveyard after the Living End resolved? The answer gets more complicated if any creatures were dumped from Outburst, then put into play right after by End.

So let's start with what went wrong here. This is a GRV; a card was put from one zone (exile) into the wrong zone (graveyard instead of library). The IPG does not have a time limit on the partial fix for this GRV, which is to put the cards on the bottom of the graveyard if they “can be moved without disrupting the state of the game.” So, we move the cards unless me need to disrupt the game to do it. Would we?

My answer: heaven knows.

As William pointed out, there are a number of things that could potentially make this partial fix disruptive. These include: shuffle effects that resolved since the cascade; shuffle affects available on the board; effects that care about cards in graveyards like a Tarmogoyf or a Surgical Extraction; and the rare card that cares about the bottom of your library.

I would have to make my ruling based on the particulars of the board state. Definitely I'd err on the side of getting the cards into the library, because dumping those cards in the yard seriously damages the integrity of the game (considering the deck is a reanimation strategy). But I won't feel bad if the board state forces me to leave the graveyard as-is. The opponent has a responsibility to maintain the state of the game, too, and he could have caught this turns ago.

I believe that it could be possible to apply a partial fix covered in the IPG:

If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.

Do u agree with this?

Is there any chance in which the correct fix would be moving those cards from graveyard to exile and keep them there, at competitive or regular? I don´t think so, not at all, but a fellow judge has suggested this…

Edited Scott Marshall (Aug. 3, 2015 11:27:45 PM)

In your original post, you asked “(what if) both players agree 100% on what cards” … and in that case, you could say that the identity of those cards was known to all players, and apply this fix - which, after all, does not have a turn limit.

Otherwise, I'm rejecting the idea of a backup, and leaving the game state as is.

d:^D

P.S. - in case anyone isn't aware, my answers may not be appropriate at Regular REL. :)

What about case c) They agree on every card except one. Would be right to leave that card in the graveyard moving the others in random order to the bottom of the library?

Originally posted by Javier Martin Arjona:

What about case c) They agree on every card except one. Would be right to leave that card in the graveyard moving the others in random order to the bottom of the library?

If they agree on every card except one, that is not 100% of the cards like Scott said. Applying the DEFAULT fix and leaving “questionable card” would be a deviation.

If an object changing zones is put into the wrong zone, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved without disrupting the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.

I thought that we have to apply this sentence to objects one by one. Is this right or does it mean that the identity of every object in a pile of them has to be known?

An answer for the last question please?

This feels like one you can easily over-parse, but if you put 5 cards in the wrong place that seems to me to be a single GRV, and not 5 of separate ones. That GRV “put 5 cards in the wrong place” doesn't fall into that exception. (only 4 were known, so at least one did not)

As Chris observed, this is not 5 GRVs. (Even if it were - and it's NOT - the “same root cause” concept would apply.)

As for the request for an “Answer”? I'm torn between the seemingly snarky (but sincerely, well-intentioned) link to Toby's infamous blog post … or just saying "scroll up and read Eli Meyer's post“, that's a fine response.

d:^D

P.S. - really, the link to Toby's post is simply ”here's something everyone should read at least once"…