Hello everyone,

It would be great if you could share your views on the following scenario:

You are the only judge at a Sealed PPTQ (format Magic Origins Limited). You are watching a game where Ashnod controls Valeron Wardens and declares it as an attacker. Her opponent declares no blocks. Players record the change in life total on their pads. After a short moment of no action, Ashnod draws a card without putting any counter on Wardens or confirming the draw with her opponent. What will you do?



Thank you,

Milan Majercik

Based just on your description it is PGE/Drawing Extra Cards - “new” fix in effect, her oponent choses a card to be shuffled into unknown portion of her library + Warning. She can draw only if she remembers about renown, and she needs to put counters on Valeron to represent that. You did not write what happened next. Who called a judge, and at which point? Just after a draw or after some other game action?

If she put a counter just after drawing a card it is Out of Order Sequencing, but if she did she also did not give her oponent opportunity to respond to the renown trigger - you should warn her, that she cannot forward game state like that.

I would ask Ashnod why she drew the card. If she gives the likely answer of “for my renown trigger”, then I'd ask her to put the counters on the creature and to play more clearly and carefully in the future. No infraction.

I am mostly in agreement with Jeff. Ashnod did two things wrong in this scenario: forgetting to put a counter on the creature before drawing, and giving his opponent the opportunity to respond. I would not consider this DEC since there is actually an ability which will give him that card.

Besides telling him to play more carefully, I would verify with the opponent whether he wanted to respond to the trigger (not very likely in Origins Sealed). If he wanted to play something with the trigger on the stack, I would back up to that moment (counter on the creature and random card back).

Originally posted by Raül Rabionet:

I would not consider this DEC since there is actually an ability which will give him that card.

Actually, if the opponent had some kind of response, as you've said, I would consider this to (possibly) be DEC. From the MIPG:

If the cards were drawn (…) as the result of resolving objects on the stack or multiple-instruction effects in an incorrect order, a backup may be considered and no further action is taken.

If you think that the existence of a draw-effect excuses the DEC infraction altogether, then I'd challenge you to name a scenario where the above snippet of the MIPG, which is taken from the “Additional Remedy” section of DEC, should apply.

Originally posted by Raül Rabionet:

If he wanted to play something with the trigger on the stack, I would back up to that moment (counter on the creature and random card back).

I don't like this, either. There's no policy support for rewinding without issuing an infraction for which a rewind is the prescribed remedy. However, DEC does actually allow a rewind here, and in my mind is also the most appropriate infraction.

In short, please don't rewind without penalizing.

I would rule the trigger as missed, as well as DEC.

However, I am not sure on one thing. Does taking an illegal action count as an action at all?

If not, then the trigger hasn't been missed as no (legal) actions have been taken yet, though the DEC still applies (you can't draw until the Renown trigger resolves. I wouldn't consider OoOS relevant in this situation). I would have the player put his counters on the creature for Renown, and have them keep playing as he already has drawn the card. I would be hesitant to apply the DEC additional remedy of having the NAP shuffle a random card from the AP's hand as it would be more disruptive to the game; the player would just draw a card anyway.

If taking an illegal action DOES count as an action, then the trigger is missed and DEC still applies. In this case I would apply the additional remedy for DEC.

Edited Sal Cortez (Sept. 23, 2015 04:48:56 AM)

I agree with JMo here. We shouldn't try to shoehorn an infraction into a play that, while sloppy, is legal.

If the opponent actually has a response to the renown trigger, sure, we have to rewind. But this sounds unlikely…

I believe this is a missed trigger - the renown trigger does two things; it places two +1/+1 counters and makes the creature renowned. As the +1/+1 counters were not placed before the card draw this trigger has been missed.

Originally posted by IPG:

A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion.

The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would have on the game…
…A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state

So the +1/+1 counters should have been added during the renown ability's resolution - before the card draw.

We then have a draw that should not have happened so GPE-DEC with a Warning for Ashnod. DEC has this clause which I believe applies here:

Originally posted by IPG:

If the cards were drawn as part of the legal resolution of an illegally played instruction, due to a Communication Policy Violation, or were as the result of resolving objects on the stack or multiple-instruction effects in an incorrect order, a backup may be considered and no further action is taken.

I would back up, choosing a card at random from Ashnod's hand and returning it to the top of the library and return to the point at which Ashnod would have been able to draw a card had the renown trigger been remembered - with the stack empty (there is no opportunity here to remember the trigger). I would advise Ashnod to play more carefully and ensure they give their opponent an opportunity to respond.

The only way this would play out differently is if I believed there was a case for OoOS. There's no mention in the OP, but if Ashnod had been reaching for dice/counters this might be acceptable - I might not even step in here unless the opponent called me because they wanted to act with the draw trigger on the stack.

That is a very technical way of looking at what has happened. However, that doesn't necessarily reflect what actually went wrong in the game. What actually went wrong is the player didn't represent the counters on his creature when he resolved Renown. This either resulted in a card being drawn before it should have been if the opponent wanted to do something (DEC with rewind) or it resulted in the counters not being represented momentarily, but everything being otherwise fine (no infraction, put some counters on there.)

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

What actually went wrong is the player didn't represent the counters on his creature when he resolved Renown

Isn't that the very definition of a missed trigger? Casting a sorcery at this point would surely indicate a missed trigger even if he'd said ‘renowned’ because he didn't put the counters on, but because the next action is a trigger due to a trigger we treat this differently?

The next action is a trigger that triggered solely because of the ‘missed’
renown trigger. The player clearly didn't miss his renown trigger, even if
he never resolved it correctly.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 11:16 AM Marc Shotter <

The fact that the card is drawn illustrates that Ashnod is aware that the trigger happened, although she should technically indeed put the counters on first. So like said: very sloppy play, instruct Ashnod to play clearer

We shouldn't uphold Ashnod to technical correct play and play gotcha ourselves as Judges. This could as well be out of order sequencing or simply forgetting to place counters. The actions lead me to believe that Ashnod is aware of her triggers (both!).

Some interesting viewpoints here, but it really is every bit as simple as J-Mo said.
(Yes, that's my “final answer”, Regis.)

d:^D

Edited Scott Marshall (Sept. 23, 2015 01:10:38 PM)

In order for a trigger to be missed, an action has to be taken past the point where it would have a visible effect on the board state, yes?

My question is does this action have to be legal to count?