The new IPG states

Originally posted by IPG 2.3:

If a player is instructed to perform an action to a set of cards on the top of his or her library and adds too many cards to that set, the infraction is Drawing Extra Cards, but any remedy is applied to that set of cards.

Additionally, there is no language under IPG 2.4 (Improper Drawing at Start of Game) for errors involving the Vancouver mulligan rule.

Based on how the IPG currently reads, if a player took a mulligan and accidentally saw two cards on their scry mulligan rather than one, we would assess the Drawing Extra Cards infraction. However, if they took one too many cards on their mulligan hand we would assess the Improper Drawing at Start of Game infraction. We would also assess the Improper Drawing at Start of Game infraction if the player attempted to mulligan after taking their scry 1 (“takes a mulligan after they are permitted to”).

Is this interpretation of the new policy correct?

Originally posted by Jacob Milicic:

Based on how the IPG currently reads, if a player took a mulligan and accidentally saw two cards on their scry mulligan rather than one, we would assess the Drawing Extra Cards infraction.

But they haven't added the card to their hand. All they have done is looked at a card they weren't entitled to see: the very definition of Looking at Extra Cards.

Furthermore, Toby Elliot mentioned this specific scenario in the judge blog announcing the new policy changes here:

Toby Elliot
Be a little careful in situations where a dexterity error leads to a card being knocked off the top of the library at the end, but not added to the set of cards under consideration. That’s still Looking at Extra Cards. It’s most likely to come up with scry. Pulling the top card off for a Scry 1 and knocking the next one over is not the same as accidentally Scrying 2.

Originally posted by Nathen Millbank:

But they haven't added the card to their hand. All they have done is looked at a card they weren't entitled to see: the very definition of Looking at Extra Cards.

Furthermore, Toby Elliot mentioned this specific scenario in the judge blog announcing the new policy changes here:

Toby Elliot
Be a little careful in situations where a dexterity error leads to a card being knocked off the top of the library at the end, but not added to the set of cards under consideration. That’s still Looking at Extra Cards. It’s most likely to come up with scry. Pulling the top card off for a Scry 1 and knocking the next one over is not the same as accidentally Scrying 2.

Perhaps the originally posted scenario was unclear. The player is effectively “accidentally Scrying 2” in this situation, which the quote you posted explicitly separates from a dexterity error.

I agree with Jacob's interpretation. However, I want to make sure I'm
interpreting the remedy correctly.

If a player accidentally saw two cards on the scry, then it would be
Drawing Extra Cards. Since the remedy is applied to that set of cards, the
opponent would get to see the two cards that were looked at for the scry
and pick one to be shuffled back into the library. Lastly, the player
would get to finish their choice on scrying with the remaining card.

I admittedly will have to get used to applying the fix to the relevant set
of cards. It feels odd that if sleeves stick together and you go to draw
for turn and you pick up two cards accidentally and catch it before they
hit your hand, that the opponent now gets to look at those two cards and
choose which one you get to draw and which one is shuffled back in. That
is quite a bit of information given to the opponent. It feels like the
punishment is now much stronger for a normally innocent action. But I also
understand that the random element could end up being a benefit for the
player committing the infraction.

Thanks,
Jason Daniels

It should be readily apparent whether a player accidentally saw a 2nd card while doing a Scry 1, or if they accidentally did a Scry 2. As Toby said, respect the line (actually, vast gulf) between errors of dexterity and errors of counting.

I finish my mulligan, go to Scry 1, and pick up 2 cards (sticky sleeves, whatever) - I've taken an action on an incorrect number of cards, and we apply DEC and that remedy (opp chooses one to shuffle away from that set).

I finish my mulligan, go to Scry 1, and the 2nd card falls off my deck - simple Looking At Extra Cards.

d:^D

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

I finish my mulligan, go to Scry 1, and pick up 2 cards (sticky sleeves, whatever) - I've taken an action on an incorrect number of cards, and we apply DEC and that remedy (opp chooses one to shuffle away from that set).

I finish my mulligan, go to Scry 1, and the 2nd card falls off my deck - simple Looking At Extra Cards.

Exactly what I was asking. Thank you for this concise summary.

Originally posted by Jacob Milicic:

We would also assess the Improper Drawing at Start of Game infraction if the player attempted to mulligan after taking their scry 1 (“takes a mulligan after they are permitted to”).

In a situation where there was no communication between players, Arnold mulls to 6, looks at his top card, decides to mull again. How would we deal with this (assuming no cheating)?

Originally posted by Luís Guimarãis:

In a situation where there was no communication between players, Arnold mulls to 6, looks at his top card, decides to mull again. How would we deal with this (assuming no cheating)?

Improper Drawing at Start of Game is defined as:

IPG 2.4
A player draws too many cards while drawing his or her opening hand, takes a mulligan after they are permitted to, or the starting player does not skip the first draw step.

It seems to me that taking a mulligan after scrying (which can only be done after both players have resolved mulligans) is taking a mulligan after you're allowed to. I would give them a warning, take a card at random from their hand, shuffle their library and let them mulligan again from that point if they want.

Originally posted by Jason Daniels:

I admittedly will have to get used to applying the fix to the relevant set
of cards. It feels odd that if sleeves stick together and you go to draw
for turn and you pick up two cards accidentally and catch it before they
hit your hand,

If they pick up two cards and catch it before they go into hand, it's not DEC - the cards haven't gone into hand where they would be considered drawn yet - we have rules that tell you when a card is drawn.

In the case of scry, you've been instructed to do something to some cards on the top of your library. Step 1 is to take a set of cards and look at them. If you take the set of cards, and that set contains the wrong number, then you move into DEC.

Basically, if you have a “second hand” at some point, and you put too many cards into that second hand, you now fix it with DEC, too.

Edited Toby Elliott (Sept. 29, 2015 06:33:21 PM)