Edited Dan Collins (Jan. 27, 2016 07:36:46 PM)
A. A player accidentally reveals (drops, flips over) a card while shuffling her opponent’s deck.
B. A player pulls up an extra card while drawing from his deck.
C. A player sees the bottom card of her deck when presenting it to her opponent for cutting/shuffling.
D. A player activates a Sensei’s Divining Top that is no longer on the battlefield, and sees 3 cards before the mistake is noticed.
Originally posted by Dan Collins:That is a deciding factor.
I can imagine that the reason is “who knows if the order of those cards *really* changed or not”
Originally posted by Dan Collins:No, not usually. I pick up 4 cards instead of 3, I'm looking at them, and realize “hey, there's an extra card stuck here”. I might be certain which one is 4th, but there's almost no chance my opponent will share that certainty.
but that's still Cheating
Originally posted by Dan Collins:or (D) None Of The Above. :)
GRV is the “infraction of last resort”
I pick up 4 cards instead of 3, I'm looking at them, and realize “hey, there's an extra card stuck here”. I might be certain which one is 4th, but there's almost no chance my opponent will share that certainty.
In the draw-1-oops-got-2 example, it's common for that 2nd card to be lightly stuck to the 1st, and quite often the 2nd card just slides off the library and plops face up for everyone to be Looking At.
When it's clear to everyone what the order is, we can ignore the part of HCE's Definition that says “Order cannot be determined from card faces only visible to one player unless the zone in question contains only a single card.”
Originally posted by Dan Collins:
You're reading too much into the examples and not enough into the definition. If he looks at an extra card, this is looking at extra cards, and the extra card is shuffled back into the library. If an extra card is moved to a hidden zone like the hand, or the extra card is picked up into a set of cards and moved about, then we cannot identify which one was the last one picked up, so it is a hidden card error.
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