I would say taht the only way would be "I go now to end step and do THIS".
And you have to precise THIS.

Originally posted by Jasper König:

Now what is the correct way to move to the end step if it's not by saying “move to the end step”?

How about “Move to my end step and do xyz in my end step”?

Why would you think that “move to the end step” should be treated differently than “move to beginning of combat” (which has been often and consistently ruled to invoke the shortcut)?

Originally posted by Théo CHENG:

I would say taht the only way would be "I go now to end step and do THIS".
And you have to precise THIS.

Ok, I see why this would be good way to do it, however, it comes with the downside of the opponent knowing what “THIS” is when we're still in the main phase. There might be only a few situations in which this could be a problem (Mana Short i.e.), so I'm okay with this.

Edited Jasper König (Feb. 25, 2016 09:21:46 AM)

Antony uses the correct technical term “end step”.
We had a thread about the combat phase, in which we came to the conclusion that the use of the technical term “beginning of combat” has to mean exactly that, and cannot be interpreted as “combat” shortcut. (Unfortunately I can't find the thread to provide you the link.)
I have no doubt that we have to apply the same philosophy here, regardless of any differences between combat phase and ending phase.

This brings me to the conclusion, that this is, indeed, one of those cases of “superior rules knowledge”, even if I don't like it very much.

Originally posted by Oliver Tremel:

We had a thread about the combat phase, in which we came to the conclusion that the use of the technical term “beginning of combat” has to mean exactly that, and cannot be interpreted as “combat” shortcut. (Unfortunately I can't find the thread to provide you the link.)

My memory is telling me the exact opposite: that anything that even remotely sounds like it might be somewhat similar to the example phrases listed in the combat shortcut will in fact invoke the shortcut - even the technically correct term “beginning of combat”. Which seems to be exactly what Scott is saying about halfway down on the first page of this thread.

Originally posted by Jasper König:

Now what is the correct way to move to the end step if it's not by saying “move to the end step”?

There's nothing wrong with saying “move to end step” or “in my end step?” or similar. Just like there's nothing wrong with “before Attackers, I animate Mutavault” or similar.

What's wrong about the original scenario is the AP trying to trick the NAP into staying in their 2nd Main Phase, when they made it clear they're ready to move to their end step.

I'm going to risk being rather blunt here: this makes perfect sense, and really shouldn't require these repeated and drawn-out debates … unless you're trying to find clever phrasing to trick your opponent. As I said above - play Magic; Word Games is held on Wednesday afternoons at the senior center. :p

d:^D

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

What's wrong about the original scenario is the AP trying to trick the NAP into staying in their 2nd Main Phase, when they made it clear they're ready to move to their end step.

d:^D

Whats the difference between this scenario and the one with Kalitas (http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/24500/?page=1)?

Both requier knowledge of the game, kalitas is it replacement effects, here its steps and phases.

I don't want to nitpick, i really dont see it.

The Kalitas example is about understanding the rules about how these cards interact, and which options arise from this interaction.
This example is about using “clever” wording to confuse the opponent about where in the turn we are.

Having superior understanding of the options within the game that the rules give you is something that can be rewarded.
Having superior word-picking skills is not something that we want to reward.

Originally posted by Sebastian Reinfeldt:

The Kalitas example is about understanding the rules about how these cards interact, and which options arise from this interaction.
This example is about using “clever” wording to confuse the opponent about where in the turn we are.

Having superior understanding of the options within the game that the rules give you is something that can be rewarded.
Having superior word-picking skills is not something that we want to reward.

Thanks for the explonation, but (yes, there is always a but :D ) can't you say both are about understanding of the game.

The Kalitas situation if the opponent would say “Would you let me get two 2/2's or would you rather not?” then the thing would be clear aswell…

Both situations the one trying to get the best out of the situations did it by wording what they are doing the way they want it to happen?

The difference is, in the Kalitas situation you are asking for a clear and
legal outcome. In this situation you are using phrasing that could be read
in one of two ways, and if your opponent says something unclear back,
trying to get your chance to act at a time you never even mentioned.

I say “go to my end step” and because my opponent said “in response” (which
is commonly used to mean “I want to do something”) I am suddenly now in my
main phase. That's pretty much the definition of using unclear
communication to gain an advantage. We have a specific shortcut so that
this kind of thing does not happen, and the question is “how do I say
something that sounds like it is using that shortcut so my opponent thinks
I am, but so that I am not actually using it”.

The answer is actually the same as the Kalitas situation: Be clear about
what you want. “I want to get priority in my own end step, can we go to
that point of the turn?” A clear and legal outcome, and if your opponent
is fine with it, then you are there.


—
Rob McKenzie
Magic Judge Level III
Judge Regional Coordinator USA-North
Minnesota

I think i understand what you are getting at.

Thanks for clarification.

Originally posted by Rob McKenzie:

We have a specific shortcut so that this kind of thing does not happen, and the question is “how do I say something that sounds like it is using that shortcut so my opponent thinks I am, but so that I am not actually using it”.

That's the best way ever to explain what's fundamentally wrong with these questions - thanks, Rob!!!

d:^D

Are there times when you want to do relevant things in your main phase or the beginning of combat step? Sure
Are there times when you want to do relevant things in your own end step? Sure
Those are the exception, though, which is why the MTR is written the way it is.

“pass priority during my main phase” and “pass priority during my second main phase” are easy enough to say.

This feels kosher to me, and I wouldn't step in, or even feel bad about it. I feel like AP was very clear about their actions, to the point that I would assume either:

a) NAP intended to cast Sphinx Rev during 2nd main, and there was a part of the game state that I was unaware of so I shouldn't step in, or

b) NAP is inexperienced in how steps and phases work, and knowledge of the rules is a skill that Magic is intended to test, and hence if NAP misplays due to that I'm not going to step in.

It was brought up that “Move to combat” is treated differently. The reason is that “combat” is a game action and not a step or phase in the turn (“combat phase” is a phase, but “combat” is not). Therefore, “move to combat” means “move to the part of the turn at which I am going to begin engaging in the game action known as ‘combat’”, which is the Declare Attackers step. Hence NAP can respond with a spell in the Beginning of Combat step when this shortcut is invoked. However, “End step” is a turn step, and hence carries different meaning. Responding to that means that you are still in 2nd main.

This does not feel like angle shooting to me whatsoever, and I would not step in at all. I think NAP just played badly and got punished for it, which is something that happens in games of Magic.

Lyle. I agree that mistakes happen in a game of Magic.

However why would NAP ever play a revelation during his opponent's main phase? There is no reason to do so and if you ask the intend of the player, I do not believe you would have much other answers than “I wanted to do it at the end step.”
A game of magic comes down to who makes the least mistakes and I do not believe that making its opponent believe that we actually are in a phase he thinks we already left is the kind of mistake that has anything to do with the game.
The shortcuts exist partly to cover those ambiguities.