Judges!

Good morning! (or evening depending on where you are)

This weekend was an absolute busy one with GP Houston and SCG Philly, but here's one I think is worth discussing.

Annie controls a Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh on the battlefield. Annie activates Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh's ability and pings Nathan for 1. Annie then proceeds to cast Abbot of Keral Keep, it resolves, has it enter the battlefield and immediately exiles the top card of the library. Taking a good 4 seconds after the exiling of the card, looked at his hand, and then attempts to untap Chandra. Nathan calls a judge because he thinks the Chandra should not untap.

Now, this is an actual situation that happened (I'm a spectator, not a judge at this event), but am curious on what you would rule. The FJ ruled that this is a block of actions and considered Out of order sequencing. This was later appealed and was also upheld.

The main question is…would you consider this out-of-order sequencing? The reason I ask is because there was a good amount of time that was paused in between the block of actions that was taken. In addition, we don't use OoOS it to retroactively take an action you missed or forgot to to at the appropriate time. I think an L3 wrote an article on this a while ago and actually used the term “It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card.”

I would have agreed that this is out-of-order sequencing if the player had announced his intentions such as: “Chandra ping you for 1, cast Abbot, exile top card, and untap Chandra” because even though that's in the incorrect order, the final game state is the same.

Thoughts?

Edited Ronny Alvarado (Feb. 29, 2016 04:18:24 PM)

I'd rule missed trigger here.

This is very close to this other thread which might contain some of the same answers: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/24994/

In order for OoOS to be valid, a few criteria have to be met:

- The actions actually have to be a batch or block of actions, which means there’s no substantial pause between the individual actions in the batch.
- An out-of-order sequence can’t result in any player prematurely gaining information that would reasonably affect decisions later in that sequence. So using OoOS as a way to “game” an opponent’s reactions isn’t permitted.
- OoOS doesn’t let you retroactively take an action you missed or forgot to do at the appropriate time. In other words, it’s not a “get out of jail free” card.
- An opponent can request that I perform the out-of-order actions in the correct order, so that he/she can respond at the appropriate point.

Exiling the top card of your library with Abbot would have gained Information. So i would also rule missed trigger here.



http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/03/understanding-out-of-order-sequencing/

This situation as presented is going to most likely be a case of GPE: Missed Trigger:

Originally posted by MTR 4.3:

An out-of-order sequence must not result in a player prematurely gaining information which could reasonably affect decisions made later in that sequence.

The player is most certainly gaining information by resolving and revealing the card from the Abbot's e.t.b ability. Also given the supposed wait/delay time before deciding to untap Chandra, the actions do not appear to be a block of actions. Please keep in mind that I am speaking to this situation specifically as presented in this thread, not the situation that occurred at the Open.

Originally posted by Marc Shotter:

I'd rule missed trigger here.

This is very close to this other thread which might contain some of the same answers: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/24994/

This is not at all the same situation. From the MTR:

An out-of-order sequence must not result in a player prematurely gaining information which could reasonably
affect decisions made later in that sequence.

This is what disqualified the Reflector Mage/Elvish Visionary situation. Seeing the extra card can be very important when choosing what to bounce. In this case there's no decision to change as there's not reason not to untap Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh.

Still, this may very well be missed trigger but it's hard to say without being there. It basically comes down to whether you think the player was always aware of the Chandra trigger and just announced it at a technically incorrect time, or if they forgot it and then remembered it later on.

Edited Mats Törnros (Feb. 29, 2016 05:46:31 PM)

I think it's missed trigger due to the pause and not being carried out in a block of actions. You would be hard pressed to convince me that knowing the top card of your library would ever alter you untapping Chandra there. Therefore, I don't think any choices were reasonably effected by the information.

Originally posted by walker metyko:

I think it's missed trigger due to the pause and not being carried out in a block of actions. You would be hard pressed to convince me that knowing the top card of your library would ever alter you untapping Chandra there. Therefore, I don't think any choices were reasonably effected by the information.

Revealed card is a bolt? Abbot lets you cast the top card..
Untap Chandra, Tap Chandra for damage, Bolt you, untap Chandra, Tap Chandra for damage & flip.

Sandro I think you're missing the point here - you will ALWAYS want to untap the Chandra, no matter what the card is. Hence it doesn't matter what the card is. Also, there is no option to leave Chandra tapped, even if there was a reason. It's not a “may untap”.

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

Sandro I think you're missing the point here - you will ALWAYS want to untap the Chandra, no matter what the card is. Hence it doesn't matter what the card is. Also, there is no option to leave Chandra tapped, even if there was a reason. It's not a “may untap”.

But it does matter in the case of OoOS?

- An out-of-order sequence can’t result in any player prematurely gaining information that would reasonably affect decisions later in that sequence. So using OoOS as a way to “game” an opponent’s reactions isn’t permitted.

Originally posted by Sandro Carlucci:

But it does matter in the case of OoOS?

Yes, because of this:
- An out-of-order sequence can’t result in any player prematurely gaining information that would reasonably affect decisions later in that sequence. So using OoOS as a way to “game” an opponent’s reactions isn’t permitted.
If you always want to untap Chandra (a reasoning I agree with), then you're not getting information that would affect your decision to untap it.

I find more interesting the fact that the player took some time between exiling the card and trying to untap Chandra. It's one of those situations where you had to be there, but I would try to understand whether this meant that the player forgot about Chandra's ability and then remembered after resolving the Abbot's triggered ability.

Originally posted by Carlos Ho:

Yes, because of this:
- An out-of-order sequence can’t result in any player prematurely gaining information that would reasonably affect decisions later in that sequence. So using OoOS as a way to “game” an opponent’s reactions isn’t permitted.
If you always want to untap Chandra (a reasoning I agree with), then you're not getting information that would affect your decision to untap it.

So my “Bolt” example wasn't that wrong? Or what am i missing here?


It's also important to know what they reported to the judge, just because the spectator feld it was 4 seconds doesn't mean it was reported way… did they say 4 seconds? 2 seconds? didn't mention the time at all..?
As Carlos said, you had to be there ;)

This is absolutely one of those “you had to be there” moments so I'm certainly not saying their ruling was incorrect, but was very much interested in tossing this question in here for some insight.

As mentioned, you basically always want to untap Chandra at every chance you get.

2 questions brought up to me by one of my mentors:

1) Did he forget the Chandra trigger?
- Sounds straight forward, but did he? What made you think he did? And as a spectator, it was simply his motion when he exiled the land, paused a good 4 seconds, looked at his hand, and then looked on the battlefield and reached for the Chandra in which prompted the judge call.

2) Would this affect his decision in the future?
-As also mentioned in this thread, you'd always want to untap Chandra so this wouldn't really change that.

So I'm inclined to call this a Missed Trigger and not OOS, but that would really involve answering the first question as accurately as possible: Did he forget the trigger?

This is a “You had to be there” situation.

However, it's important to note that there are no decisions being made when resolving Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh's ability, so that particular exception does not apply; this can indeed potentially be OoOS. Annie does gain additional information by exiling the top card of her library, but that information cannot possibly affect the decision of whether or not to untap Chandra because there is no such decision.

Originally posted by Callum Milne:

However, it's important to note that there are no decisions being made when resolving Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh's ability, so that particular exception does not apply; this can indeed potentially be OoOS. Annie does gain additional information by exiling the top card of her library, but that information cannot possibly affect the decision of whether or not to untap Chandra because there is no such decision.

Ah now i understand how this part for OoOS is ment, thanks.

I want to point out that it doesn't matter if a trigger was forgotten, only if it is Missed as per the definition in the IPG.

Lots of triggers are forgotten, then remembered and acknowledged when appropriate. This does tend to upset some number of opponents, who want to equate “forgot” with “missed”.

d:^D