So we have quite interesting discussion at our local msg-board, check this out:
We had PPTQ with 15 players and TOP4. In last round everyone needs to play to lock their spot in top. One of those players (lets call him Bob) lost and calculated that he will not make it so went to home, without droping but with goodbyes to everyone, “unfortunately” for Bob he sneaked in on last spot to TOP4. How would you guys handle that situation?
In the end HJ, after consultations, ruled that Bob will be dropped from tournament before cut so #5 player would play in play-offs.
While we managed to get into quite nice consensus about prizes in this kind of situations (see below) there is still discussion about how fair is to drop absent finalist when you roll call them before cut. In one situation we have player in play-offs that should not be there on the other hand, we have semifinalist that gets “BYE” in his 1st match and gets straight into finals.

As for the prizes, our solution was to keep for original #4(8) player his prizes to collect those later, and player #5(9) that will replace him in play-offs gets his prizes reduced by amount that was keept for #4(8).

edit: surprisingly I get a lot on this topic from there http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/25470/ :)

Edited Bartłomiej Wieszok (March 24, 2016 04:22:50 AM)

Originally posted by Bartłomiej Wieszok:

In the end HJ, after consultations, ruled that Bob will be dropped from tournament before cut so #5 player would play in play-offs.

I'm very interested to hear reasons and argumentations for this decision!

MTR 2.10
If a player drops from a tournament after a cut has been made, such as a cut to the top 8 playoff in a Grand Prix tournament, no other player is advanced as a replacement. The highest ranked remaining player receives a bye for the round instead.

It's common practice to check that people are present before making cuts, and to check if they are interested in playing in the top 4/8. It's particularly common amongst events that decide to pay prizes based on Swiss finish and then allow the players in the top 4/8 to play for the 2 byes (if it's a GPT) or the invite (if it's a PPTQ). From the players' perspective, if all someone wants is boosters or PWPs, they can 5-0 the Swiss, collect those prizes, and drop. Then it means the top 4/8 consists of players who actually want to compete for the first prize. That way everyone wins - those who want boosters, and those who care nothing for boosters and only want the invite/byes.

If a player were to vanish before a cut, then I'd make an effort to contact them (but not much of an effort - if someone has a phone number and can call them that's as far as I'll, personally, go). Otherwise I'll assume they've dropped before the cut, and go ahead and make the cut (which allows someone into the cut).

In tournaments with Cut to Top8/Top4, I usually announce the Top Standings and ask the players wheter or not they want to play the single elimination rounds. Players who aren't there and didn't announce in advance that they want to play will be dropped before the cut.
But this is my decision as a TO.

Prizes are usually given out after the Swiss rounds, I like that better when people play only for the win and not for prices, additionally it removes possibilities for ‘unintentional’ bribery.

I believe technically the “cut” isn't made until the new round is started in WER and pairings made.

The question I have is if you can drop someone without their permission simply because they aren't in the venue.

I have seen situations where someone knows that they won't be playing the next round but feel it is kind to give someone a “free win” by not showing up. At a larger tournament you are unlikely to be able to track this, but at a smaller one it is likely that you could. But should you?

The only time the MTR allows for automatically dropping a player is when they don't show up for a match which is clearly after pairings have been made. From a by Rules As Written (RAW) perspective, you definately should not be dropping someone because you don't anticipate them making it to their match.

Edited Marc DeArmond (March 24, 2016 11:36:03 AM)

Recently, I had a player IDing last round into top8.
While waiting for last round to finish, he told me he had to go away, but he wanted to get his top8 prize.
We asked the TO, and he said he wasn't open to give the prize to the player should he drop.

So, as silly as it may seem, I applied the rules - I didn't make a cut. Player received prize, and went away. A quarterfinalist received a “free win” for opponent not being present.

Would you have done the same?

Suppose TO makes the following proposal (didn't happen for real, I am making it up): “I will give this guy his prize, then he drops. 9th player makes top8, but doesn't get quarterfinalist prize, so my costs and revenues balance for the tournament remains the same”.
Would this solution be legal?

Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:

Would you have done the same?

If the TO sais it that way, yes. What other options you have? refuse? ^^
You could talk to the TO and give him your opinion… but then there is nothing more to do..

Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:

Suppose TO makes the following proposal (didn't happen for real, I am making it up): “I will give this guy his prize, then he drops. 9th player makes top8, but doesn't get quarterfinalist prize, so my costs and revenues balance for the tournament remains the same”.
Would this solution be legal?

Why not?

TO's interest is that the player attending his tournament will come back, if he goes shady with prizes then player won't return in the long run.

What if the player, whom you dropped, realizes that his calculation was wrong and that he made it to the top 8 and decides to come back to the store, hoping for a game loss for tardiness and realizing he has been dropped?

That's why you shouldn't drop someone from a tournament unless he doesn't show up for his match (so match loss for tardiness/ no show), even if, as weird as it seems, your top 4 is actually a top 3 with a lucky byer.

Well, he said his goodbyes to everyone. That's not as good as a drop in my book, but maybe what you could do in the future is ask if they are dropping. That way you can actually, legally drop him and allow someone else into the top 8.

Personally I disagree with the policy that people can't move into a top 8 position due to absences. But I think that's only because no one has presented the downsides or exploits of eliminating the policy to me.

Originally posted by Dustin De Leeuw:

I'm very interested to hear reasons and argumentations for this decision!

I wasn't on the staff so I will redirect this question to judge in interest ;)

Filip Söderholm
MTR 2.10
If a player drops from a tournament after a cut has been made, such as a cut to the top 8 playoff in a Grand Prix tournament, no other player is advanced as a replacement. The highest ranked remaining player receives a bye for the round instead.

Yes, but player was dropt from tournament before cut was made.

@Gilles Demarle: I know that TO and HJ made reasonable effort to contact that player before droping him from the event.

I think MTR is very unclear in that situation and if this is allowed, it should be more clearly stated in MTR

Edited Bartłomiej Wieszok (March 25, 2016 05:44:51 AM)

Originally posted by Gilles Demarle:

What if the player, whom you dropped, realizes that his calculation was wrong and that he made it to the top 8 and decides to come back to the store, hoping for a game loss for tardiness and realizing he has been dropped?

Hmm good point, i think as he said “Bye Guys..” and left i would drop him.

What if someone scoops and realizes he woulnd't have lost? still scoops ^^


But after this discussion im not so sure anymore, when is the point that someone dropped without saying he drops? when the next game starts and he doens't show up? Even when he “laudly” said “Bye Guys..” to everyone?

When a player scoops, it's nearly impossible to “back up” to an organic state of the game, so when you scoop, you scoop, too bad.

Here, we know how to handle a tardy player.

Off course, it's mostly rhetorical and a player who says “bye” to everyone, leaves, realizes that he should be playing in the top 8 and comes back to the store, would understand most of the time why he had been dropped but right now in the documents, unless he said “I drop” and/or mark his result slip as well, you can't assume that he's leaving until he's not showing in his next match.

That's what we say to players in the bottom tables during GPs… when you are at 0/6, most of the time, if your opponent doesn't show up for the round 7, that's because he left and dropped, but we have to wait 10 minutes to be sure and mark it as a no show.

Originally posted by Bartłomiej Wieszok:

I think MTR is very unclear in that situation and if this is allowed, it should be more clearly stated in MTR

I want to comment on this fact, because I strongly disagreed with you. I think that situation desribed is so rare, it doesn't need to be included in MTR. Just do what you thinks is the best and go on.

You have to talk about that with the TO in advance, but where is the problem with this fix:
Pirces are given out according to standings after the last swiss round.
Ask the top players if they want to participate in the play off rounds, everyone who doesn't want to play for the win/RPTQ-ticket/trophy passes his spot down (i.e. will be dropped before the cut)

I had that a few times at GPTs when players do not intend to play the GP, they are willing to pass their chance to those who want to fight for the byes.

In my opinion this is completely covered by the MTR, the tournament stays integer the whole time and collusion cannot be prevented better.