During a pregame scry after a mulligan, a player's sleeves stick together, and they see the top two cards as a result. What is the appropriate infraction? Our most recent IPG states that “scrying for more than one card” in this case is treated as a HCE. On the other hand, the section for HCE explicitly states that it doesn't apply in cases where cards accidentally stick together. It seems clear that the philosophy behind the recent change would mean that this case should be treated as LEC, just as it would be if it happened in a game, but there is no specific call out in the Mulligan Procedure Error section to support this. What do you all think?

link here

I believe it is still part of the pre-game procedure and will still rule this as GPE - MPE. As the scry is still part of the pre-game procedure and I believe the error was caught before the pre-game procedure has ended as per your example.

I would rule Looking at Extra Cards.

Although it is not stated explicitely, the philosophy and examples of MEP make it look like a special, softer, case of HCE. It would be weird to punish this particular case much more harshly (a forced mulligan is no joke) than the same error happening during the game (where we would call it L@EC, and even the HCE remedy would only allow the opponent to choose which card is actually on top for the scry).

Toby just covered this in his blog.
“This one’s actually a policy change, though most people were probably applying it already – looking at two or more cards during your mulligan not-actually-a-scry (but we’re going to call it one anyway) is handled as a Hidden Card Error, not a Mulligan Procedure Error. Philosophically, even though we’re still technically before the start of the game, it fits there.”

The thing is that HCE is not supposed to apply to “simple dexterity errors, such as when a card being pulled off the library sticks to another card and is seen or knocked off the library”.

If a player looks deliberately at two cards for his Vancouver Scry (maybe because they mulliganed to five and thought that they were allowed a Scry 2), Toby told us that the infraction is HCE.

If it is a dexterity error, the ruling is less clear. It could be HCE, if we take Toby's instruction to apply to all cases where a player sees two cards during the Vancouver Scry. It could be L@EC by analogy, if we consider that the meaning for this instruction is to treat this infraction as it if occurred after the pre-game procedure. Or it could be MPE if we consider that HCE cannot apply due to the above clause and that there is nothing allowing us to call it L@EC.

Edited Florian Horn (July 20, 2016 12:16:02 PM)

Just confirming - two cards stuck together is still L@EC (Looking at Extra Cards) when it occurs during the pre-game process. The same guiding philosophy that has us treat “Scry 2 (oops, should've been 1 for the mulligan)” as HCE allows us to treat L@EC as L@EC.

d:^D

Originally posted by Trenten Novak:

Toby just covered this in his blog.
“This one’s actually a policy change, though most people were probably applying it already – looking at two or more cards during your mulligan not-actually-a-scry (but we’re going to call it one anyway) is handled as a Hidden Card Error, not a Mulligan Procedure Error. Philosophically, even though we’re still technically before the start of the game, it fits there.”

HCE applies when we ‘scry’ 2 instead of 1 as part of pre-game procedure. In this scenario the player is ‘scrying’ 1 and accidentally sees an extra card. As Scott says, this is clearly a case of Looking at Extra Cards (usual caveats apply).

While I think I understand the situation I am confused as to what the penalty is recorded as on reporter. Which may also be relevant for potential upgrades. Is this recorded as a Hidden Card Error, or LEC?

Graham

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Originally posted by Graham Theobalds:

While I think I understand the situation I am confused as to what the penalty is recorded as on reporter. Which may also be relevant for potential upgrades. Is this recorded as a Hidden Card Error, or LEC?

The specific infraction that is recorded will depend on the circumstances from you investigating the player(s) description of the events:

If your investigation determines that the player misunderstood the number of cards they looked at during the Vancouver scry, “deliberately” picking up two cards instead of one, then it is HEC. This is not a dexterity error.

If your investigation determines that the player attempted to perform the Vancouver scry correctly, but a second card was stuck to the first card, then it is LEC. This is a dexterity error.

Ok thank you for clarifying that.


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