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Competitive REL » Post: A new lifepad

A new lifepad

Nov. 7, 2016 09:50:58 AM

Thomas Ralph
Judge (Level 3 (UK Magic Officials)), Scorekeeper

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

A new lifepad

A local player has approached me via a Facebook group and asked if the below lifepad design would be legal.

https://imgur.com/gallery/MMIeI

I replied that I would not accept it as:

1) The strategic plan would be Outside Assistance
2) Spending time writing down every card his opponent has seen, possible and confirmed cards in hand, and so on would be Slow Play

Some other judges on the group thought it might be allowable either with or without HJ permission, so we have agreed to refer here for further views. All suggestions welcome.

Nov. 7, 2016 10:27:33 AM

Dustin De Leeuw
Judge (Level 3 (International Judge Program)), Tournament Organizer

BeNeLux

A new lifepad

It's some very generic strategic advice, that could pertain to any game, not just Magic.
Every notepad has room for writing down stuff, it doesn't mean that the player will use it excessively.

I see no problem at all with this specific notepad. For me, it simply tells the player to pay attention to the game, and here's some room where you may or may not write stuff and lifetotals.

The only problem is the slippery slope argument. I do not expect that the allowance of this pad will lead to a cascade with lifepads that contain an increasing amount of strategic information. So let's have the player have his lifepad :)

Nov. 7, 2016 10:29:20 AM

Dominik Chłobowski
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

Canada - Eastern Provinces

A new lifepad

1. If all the notes are taken during the match, it's not Outside
Assistance. Personally, I think the rubric is simple enough. Heck, they
could even write it down themselves during the match.
2. Sometimes I take similar notes to what they have on the bottom of the
sheet. It's not *inherently* slow play, but I'd advise the player to make
sure they play at an acceptable pace, and not prioritize the notes.

The whole thing does look like a bit much though, especially the tactical
plan. A reminder of what to think about? Sure. I have no idea what I'd
actually write down in there, and even if I did, it would take too long.
This seems like a stepping stone into playing better. Using the whole sheet
seems prone to slow play.

2016-11-07 10:51 GMT-05:00 Thomas Ralph <

Nov. 7, 2016 11:07:52 AM

Norman Ralph
Judge (Level 2 (UK Magic Officials)), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

A new lifepad

My view is that as long as none of this is filled in before the game then it meets the criteria in the MTR. Obviously pre-filling any of the sheet is likely Outside Assistance and I am pretty convinced that actually filling this in during the game and keeping it up to date is likely to be Slow Play.

I think the primary argument against it is that we are going to get a judge call from every opponent and at GPs etc, it will not necessarily be easy for this to be explained to a non-English speaking judge.

Nov. 7, 2016 11:56:57 AM

Bartłomiej Wieszok
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program)), Tournament Organizer

Europe - Central

A new lifepad

I see nothing wrong with that design. Of course, players can't take too much time to fill that up while playing, and assuming that it is empty at the beginning of the match. Also I don't think we would receive greater amount of calls because of that

Edited Bartłomiej Wieszok (Nov. 7, 2016 12:08:53 PM)

Nov. 7, 2016 05:41:42 PM

Brook Gardner-Durbin
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Great Lakes

A new lifepad

I agree with Thomas, I wouldn't allow this. I think the flowchart, despite being light on details, is enough to constitute Outside Assistance. Regardless of exact details, it's giving the user play advice for their turn, and we don't allow that.
I don't see a problem with the blank text boxes, as they are not telling the player how to progress their game, only saving them time with notetaking in game. Players frequently make note of cards they've seen in their opponent's hand, and putting a label above that list will actually save the player time (assuming they would otherwise write out “cards my opponent has seen”).


Originally posted by Dominik Chłobowski:

Heck, they could even write it down themselves during the match.
I don't think this is relevant. Players are allowed to write themselves notes like “If opponent has Tarmogoyf, cast Terminate if below 10 life. Wait if at 11+” or similar mid game, but we certainly wouldn't allow them to be handed that same text by a friend without penalty. The decision to rule Outside Assistance or not is based on the question of whether or not the information given is play advice, not whether the play advice could have been easily written down during the match.

Nov. 7, 2016 06:09:29 PM

Bryan Prillaman
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Southeast

A new lifepad

I don't see any strategic information on this. Strategic information is often context sensitive. This life pad isn't context sensitive. the information has nothing to do with a specific strategy other than “play better”. Now that doesn't mean I like the lifepad. I think it's too busy to be useful and we aren't playing Magic:The Accounting.
I'd let the player try it for a bit and watch them realize that adding a bunch of boxes to write things down just gives you less space to actually write things down.

Nov. 8, 2016 07:42:29 AM

David Lachance-Poitras
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

Canada - Eastern Provinces

A new lifepad

I find this lifepad model quite impractical for use in a real tournament setting.

1. A pad like this would have to be quite bigger than usual in order to have enough space for all its fields and, considering that match table space can be limited in some venues, that pad would take a significant share of the play area, potentially hindering the play experience.

2. As expressed by some people in the thread, there are potential slow play issues if the player would take significant time maintaining those notes during the match, especially if the match tend to go long.

3. Players are used/conditionned to the “standard” lifepad model and would certainly call judge when they were to see this kind of lifepad on their opponent's side, arguing that their lifepad gives their opponent an advantage.

If we were to allow it, that would create a precedent that other players could use to try to stretch what the MTR allows or not.


Maybe the MTR could be refined ? Does instituting an official standard regarding lifepads be relevant considering their widespread usage among players ?

Nov. 8, 2016 08:20:28 AM

Ezra Carr
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

A new lifepad

If I was asked about this lifepad I would have to give two answers:

As a Judge, this is fine. Don't spend too much time writing things down.
As a player, this is a waste of time/space mental resources. Don't use it.

Ask your player what they hope to have this lifepad do for them and when they say something along the lines of, “make me play better,” ask them to try to play a game ACTUALLY using it and then notice how much less attention they pay to the game itself. The time spent training yourself to use this pad could just be used to make yourself better at the game instead.

Nov. 8, 2016 09:00:11 AM

John Brian McCarthy
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Midatlantic

A new lifepad

I don't think this is outside assistance.

I do think that it's a ridiculous amount of information to want to write down. If a player is spending his or her entire game looking down at a notepad writing probabilities that opponents have a given card, he or she isn't paying much attention to his or her opponent, and that I find problematic:

  • The match could take longer because a player doesn't realize that his or her opponent is waiting on a response
  • Players are our first line of defense against cheating - if an opponent is writing an opus on his or her lifepad, it wouldn't be hard for a player to draw an extra card or untap a land.
  • It could lead to confusion in he said/she said situations.
  • Most of all, it's just disrespectful to the person who came to play a game with you. Be engaged in the game you're playing, and treat the person across from you as a person.

I don't think I'd tell a player that they can't use this lifepad, but I'd note that if I see them spending all game writing instead of paying attention, I'm going to suggest they focus a little better.

Nov. 8, 2016 10:13:08 AM

Kevin Binswanger
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

A new lifepad

I have no problems with this notepad. If someone diligently filled it
out, they'd probably be playing too slowly, but I don't anticipate
anyone doing all of that, especially for more than 1 round.

On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Brook Gardner-Durbin
<forum-31304-902a@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

Nov. 9, 2016 02:03:13 PM

Lyle Waldman
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Eastern Provinces

A new lifepad

Aside from the flowchart in the upper right corner, I'd have no problem with this, assuming the player fills it out within a reasonable amount of time, which is not a problem with the sheet but rather with the player.

The issue I have is with the upper right corner flowchart. While the advice in the flowchart seems reasonably obvious, it is still outside assistance, I believe, for the same reason as a Ponder with the words “Put the Miracle second from the top you dolt” written on it would be outside assistance. The particular point I take issue with is the part at the bottom of the flowchart, where it says “Establish greater board presence”, as this is non-obvious information, in my opinion. Specifically, there may come a point in a game at which a player may think to themselves (erroneously) that expanding their board is not the best play, and choose instead to build their hand, and lose the game because of a misevaluation of the board state; this text on the lifepad is outside assistance which keeps the player from making this erroneous play.

I would be OK with this chart if that part at the bottom about “Establish grater board presence” was removed or replaced by something less advice-ish. I would, however, watch this player for slow play throughout the event, because I have a hard time believing this sheet is useful without taking a long time filling it out each game.

Nov. 9, 2016 04:04:53 PM

Riki Hayashi
Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper, Tournament Organizer

USA - Midatlantic

A new lifepad

“Visual modifications to cards, including brief text, that provide minor strategic information or hints are acceptable and not considered notes.”
In my opinion, both your Ponder example and the text on the life pad seem acceptable within this clause.