This scenario happened in a PPTQ here in Brazil.

Game 3 of a match. Someone stumble at the table (maybe one of the players, maybe a spectator, maybe a judge) and some dices start rolling on the table, go to the floor, and so on. The players get back the dices. Without noticing, Anton's sideboard that was on the top of a deckbox went on top of Anton's library.

Anton casts a Glassblower's Puzzleknot, and scries the 2 cards to the bottom. They did not realize, even feeling strange about those two cards, that they were from the sideboard.
Then they activate their Aetherworks Marvel and picks up 6 cards from the top of the library. Immediately the judge is called and tells that probably their sideboard is on top of the library, with two cards scried to the bottom.

What would you rule in this situation? What is the best fix for this?

Edited Vinicius Quaiato (Dec. 5, 2016 04:19:20 PM)

I assume this happened after the game had already started? I also assume that cheating is ruled out, since there's a high possibility for abuse of this sort of thing.

The only rule that has really been violated here is MTR 3.15:

During a game, players may look at their own sideboard, keeping it clearly distinguishable from other cards at all times

The IPG doesn't state a specific penalty for failing to follow this rule (we're in game 3, so the sideboard listed on the decklist doesn't need to match the cards currently in the sideboard, ruling out D/DLP). Ruling HCE here seems to break the “if it feels insane, it probably is” rule since the fix would be to have Anton reveal his entire deck to his opponent and have the opponent get to decide how Anton sideboarded for this game, so HCE seems bad too.

Insufficient Shuffling could apply here as we suspect that the cards from Anton's sideboard are “on top of his deck,” and that infractions reads, in part:

A deck is not shuffled if the judge believes a player could know the position or distribution of one or more cards in his or her deck

There's no infraction or fix for general violations of the MTR (though we obviously still investigate for intentionally doing so), so there's no way to fix the problem of having sideboard cards in Anton's deck. It's not a perfect match since this didn't happen as part of a shuffle, but I'd be inclined to rule Insufficient Shuffling and randomize Anton's deck to alleviate the “my sideboard is on top of my deck” problem, leaving aside the cards that were scried to the bottom earlier and the cards that have been seen from Aetherworks Marvel.

Edit: As pointed out below, it appears that HCE actually is the remedy for this situation. (so much for my instincts on that one) As such, I'd perform a simple backup to before resolving the ability of Aetherworks Marvel, and then allow Anton's opponent to look at Anton's library and remove the sideboard cards.

Edited Andrew Keeler (Dec. 5, 2016 10:48:39 PM)

At first I was certain that this situation (mixing deck and sideboard) fell under TE - Deck/Decklist Problem. Upon further research it appears that this is no longer the case as of the Eldritch Moon update to the IPG. Taking a look at Appendix B of the July 2016 edition of the IPG (which summarizes changes from previous versions), we find the following note referring to a change in section 3.5 (the Deck/Decklist problem infraction):

3.5: Removed Example E, (sideboard and deck get mixed), as this is now Hidden Card Error.

(It should be noted that this change was not highlighted in Toby Elliott's Policy Perspectives article, so I am probably not the only one to have missed it.)

It therefore appears that we have our answer. This is a Hidden Card Error, for which the player should receive a Warning. Given all the circumstances (including the scry to the bottom), I am not content to call this a “simple dexterity error.”

As for the remedy, the IPG instructs us to reveal the set of cards containing the excess cards (in this case the player's library, which includes an excess number of cards equal to his sideboard), and then the opponent chooses a number of cards equal to the excess to be returned to the correct location (the sideboard). The result will be that NAP effectively gets to de-sideboard Anton as he chooses. (Note that although the IPG does not specify this, I would apply common sense and have the players shuffle the library after it had been fixed. Strictly speaking, the IPG only specifies randomization when excess cards are moved to the library, not from it).

The last question to resolve is whether Anton now gets to resolve the ability of his Aetherworks Marvel. The IPG says:

The player does not repeat the instruction or partial instruction (if any) that caused the infraction.

It is not clear, however, that this applies here, because it was not the activation of the ability which caused the error–in fact the error preceded the activation altogether. I would therefore be inclined to allow Anton to resolve the ability once the remedy for HCE had been applied.

I would try to deviate a little at the beginning since I find HCE fix there really off-place. I would take Anton away off the table and ask him how he sideboarded for that game. This should give me information what 15 cards should be on top of library (including scried ones). If those would be the top 15 then I would put them back to his deckbox. Then I would consider rewinding game up to activation of puzzleknot.

I would also rule HCE, however I disagree with the fixes presented for this situation.

We start the sequence with 15 extra cards on top of the library. Puzzleknot scries 2 to the bottom. Marvel looks at the top 6. At this point, we realize that the sideboard was put on top of the deck. It's known that when this sequence began, there was a set of 15 cards on top of the library that should not have been there. These extra sideboard cards can be tracked through the Puzzleknot trigger, so now we know there are 2 extra cards on the bottom and 13 on top. Therefore those are the sets containing extra cards, and can apply the HCE remedy to only those.
This would entail first performing a simple backup to before Marvel's ability began resolving. Then, reveal the 2 cards from the bottom of the library and allow the opponent to choose 2 of them (aka, both) to return to the correct location (Anton's sideboard). Same for the 13 remaining on top. Finally, continue forward to once again resolving Marvel's ability.

This ultimately seems to line up pretty closely with the fix that Bartłomiej proposed, but denies Anton another shot at his scry and gives N information about Anton's sideboard.

TLDR: 2 on bottom and 13 on top are known locations, so apply HCE remedy only to those cards.

Since it's not Game 1, how can we be sure that Anton's sideboard contains exact 15 cards (or any number registered in his decklist as sideboard), assuming this is a constructed tournament? What if it's a limited tournament and the players only sleeved part of his sideboard? how many cards to be moved to his sideboard? Is it right to fix the main deck down to the minimum number required, or the number registered in Anton's decklist as main. Either way, something feels not right…

I agree this falls under HCE, but I am toying with the idea, that since the number of the original deck cannot be confirmed and the number now is legal, we keep the known cards (scried 2) to the bottom and simply shuffle the rest, then let the game continue. Of cource, with a warning from HCE for Anton. Would anyone think that's acceptable?

Provided I was the HJ here, and after having investigated to make sure they
agree on the way things played out and that there's no shady business, I
would be inclined to call this a significant and exceptional circumstance.
There's a lot of things that might make me go differently, but I won't list
them all because I should be writing my exam instead of this ^^.

The thing with exceptional circumstances are of course that we can't have
examples for them all but this actually is even reminiscient of one. It
certainly isn't a table collapsing but the concept fits. It is an
unexpected physical event that causes decks and/or game states to be
disrupted.

I would probably solve it along the lines of taking aside the top 13+2
bottom cards, checking that it seems like a sb. Ask the player what they sb
and make sure that it seems to fit with what I have (the potential for
abuse here is basically non-existent since the cards they claim were in
their maindeck has to be at the very bottom of the sb cards having landed
on the deck) and just restore the game state to right before the table was
bumped.

Will be interested to hear other thoughts on this!

*stops procrastinating and continues studying*

2016-12-06 9:47 GMT+01:00 Siyang Li <forum-31926-a12f@apps.magicjudges.org>:

Originally posted by Matt Marheine:

TLDR: 2 on bottom and 13 on top are known locations, so apply HCE remedy only to those cards.

I'm not sure that I like the ‘we know the locations of the cards’ reasoning here. If a player puts an extra card into their hand and immediately removes one and claims “this is the extra card,” we still have them reveal their whole hand for their opponent to choose the extra card. Ultimately, the HCE fix gives the opponent the option to trust Anton about the location of his sideboard cards, but we aren't empowered to make that decision for them.

Siyang Li
I agree this falls under HCE, but I am toying with the idea, that since the number of the original deck cannot be confirmed and the number now is legal, we keep the known cards (scried 2) to the bottom and simply shuffle the rest, then let the game continue. Of course, with a warning from HCE for Anton. Would anyone think that's acceptable?

If we're doing that we're really ruling Insufficient Shuffling, since we're applying the Insufficient Shuffling fix. Since there is a high ceiling for abuse, I don't know that we can simply say “your penalty is having those extra cards remain in your deck.” Since a player is claiming they have an extra 15 cards in their deck, just like if a player is claiming they have an extra card in their hand, HCE specifies that we remove the excess cards.

Edited Andrew Keeler (Dec. 6, 2016 01:53:10 PM)

Just a note: It seems like many people are making assumptions about how
many cards were in the Sideboard at the start of the game. The player may
have had 15 cards in the SB, but certainly could have had less. I would be
hesitant doing anything to the deck without having confirmation from both
players of the exact SB count at the start of Game 2.

Just in case it wasn't already obvious, there will not be an ‘O’fficial answer from me.

A player drops cards onto their library, and they not only don't notice that, but the cards land so perfectly that it's not immediately apparent afterwards? At this point, I decided the required suspension of disbelief was excessive, and moved on to the next topic… ;)

d:^D

It's like the coin toss that lands on the side ?

Sent from my iPhone

On 6 Dec 2016, at 21:26, Scott Marshall <forum-31926-12fe@apps.magicjudges.org<mailto:forum-31926-12fe@apps.magicjudges.org>> wrote:


Just in case it wasn't already obvious, there will not be an ‘O’fficial answer from me.

A player drops cards onto their library, and they not only don't notice that, but the cards land so perfectly that it's not immediately apparent afterwards? At this point, I decided the required suspension of disbelief was excessive, and moved on to the next topic… ;)

d:^D

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Originally posted by Graham Theobalds:

It's like the coin toss that lands on the side ?

Exactly!

In a related note - that actually happened to me, once. I don't expect it will ever happen again!

d:^D

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Just in case it wasn't already obvious, there will not be an ‘O’fficial answer from me.

A player drops cards onto their library, and they not only don't notice that, but the cards land so perfectly that it's not immediately apparent afterwards?

That happened because the stumble at the table. The dices started rolling on the floor, and nobody realized the sideboard falling on top of the library. When players returned to the table (after hunting the dices) they just thought the library had a little sliding with the stumble.

I am not expecting an ´O´… but I thought discussing would be interesting. What do you think?

Edited Vinicius Quaiato (Dec. 6, 2016 07:27:05 PM)

Originally posted by Andrew Keeler:

If we're doing that we're really ruling Insufficient Shuffling, since we're applying the Insufficient Shuffling fix. Since there is a high ceiling for abuse, I don't know that we can simply say “your penalty is having those extra cards remain in your deck.” Since a player is claiming they have an extra 15 cards in their deck, just like if a player is claiming they have an extra card in their hand, HCE specifies that we remove the excess cards.

Not exactly, I feel this is quite exceptional situation (significant? maybe, maybe not), I still would not jump to the conclusion on how many cards being in sideboard simply according to one player's words. Though how sure they can be, we cannot (unless both agreed). Letting Anton's opponent looking through Anton's library while not going to select any cards because we are not sure of the number (not because there is none) feels wrong. On the other hand, Anton might have a vague impression on what cards are still on top means we cannot leave it be. Thus I decide to deviate and simply shuffle the “should be” unknown part and let Anton redo Marvel's work.

I think an opponents choice to sideboard up to 15 cards will end in a free win (playing about 8 (23-15) lands in 60 cards will screw)

Since there is no more the rule to have exactly 15 cards in sideboard and I dont know which cards were boarded i would Shouffle the entire library( 75 cards)and give a warning for insufficent shuffle