Hello everyone!

Alex, after resolving a Serum Vision (he decides to leave the two scried cards on the top of his library), accidentally shuffles his deck.

What would you do? Infraction? Penalty? Fix?
Thanks in advance for your answers!

Jacopo

Sounds that it happens accidentally. Otherwise I would investigate.

Infraction GPE - GRV
Since he fails to follow the instruction from the Card (Serum Vision) correctly
Penalty - Warning
Fix - leaving everything as it is

Why is this not a Hidden Card Error, Max ?

A player commits an error in the game that cannot be corrected by only publicly available
information and does so without his or her opponent’s permission.
This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a
hidden set of cards both before and after the error. A set is a physically distinct group defined by
a game rule or effect. It may correspond to a specific zone, or may only represent a part of a
zone.

The cards were in a hidden zone (top of library) before and after the error.

Philip, while you can fit it into HCE by definition, I think it's not meet philosophy behind this infraction.

I would go with GRV for not resolving spell correctly, warning, no fix. Assuming no malicious intents of course.

I think we should restrain from overinterpreting things into philosophy of an infraction. That leads to inconsistent rulings.

Add:
Appareantly, the defintion at
This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both before and after the error.
specifies a hidden set of cards. Is “the bottom card of your library” or “the top card of your library” a set of cards? If no, then the definition of HCE longer applies. The “bottom card” is not definitely defined by the game rules or by an effect. It was defined during the Scry earlier, but it is no longer.

Edited Philip Böhm (Dec. 9, 2016 06:21:25 AM)

Originally posted by Philip Böhm:

I think we should restrain from overinterpreting things into philosophy of an infraction. That leads to inconsistent rulings.

Add:
Appareantly, the defintion at
This infraction only applies when a card whose identity is known to only one player is in a hidden set of cards both before and after the error.
specifies a hidden set of cards. Is “the bottom card of your library” or “the top card of your library” a set of cards? If no, then the definition of HCE longer applies. The “bottom card” is not definitely defined by the game rules or by an effect. It was defined during the Scry earlier, but it is no longer.

Assuming that you do decide to rule HCE, what fix would you apply?

I think before we go into fixes, we need to take a step back and look at
the actual the error again.

Did Alex Scry incorrectly?

Or did Alex Scry correctly, then take a completely distinct action of
shuffling his library without a good reason to do so?

Further, if the latter, should we treat the reference scenario differently
than the following:

“Alex Scries 2. He then attacks, casts a spell, and passes the turn. Nora
then cracks a fetch land. While she untaps and searches, Alex is looking
out the window at a cool bird. When Nora presents her deck, Alex
absentmindedly reaches down, grabs his own deck, and begins to shuffle it.”

So, this kind of error is to treat as a GRV, not as a HCE. Right?
Or am I misunderstanding Joshua's post? :D

We treat this as a GRV.

I agree with Philip that it matches the definition of HCE, but applying that fix would be a nightmare. Toby specifically told us not to do insane things in the name of HCE.

What is not entirely clear to me is whether we should issue a HCE Warning and a GRV fix, or if we should just give a GRV Warning.

Edited Florian Horn (Jan. 10, 2017 09:45:32 AM)

Was the Serum Visions resolved incorrectly?