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Competitive REL » Post: "Final Cut" after shuffling an opponent's deck

"Final Cut" after shuffling an opponent's deck

April 22, 2013 03:32:28 PM

Alan Cleaver
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Southwest

"Final Cut" after shuffling an opponent's deck

I've had this question come up at two different stores now, and would appreciate whatever input you feel is relevant.

At the beginning of a game, Ariel shuffles and presents her deck to Nemo. Nemo shuffles the deck and gives it back to Ariel. Ariel announces “final cut,” and cuts her own deck before drawing her opening hand.

Apparently several area players attended a local Grand Prix a few years ago and were told that this was not only okay, but suggested. Was this once part of the Comp Rules? Is it still in the rules, and I'm just looking at the wrong place?

It is my understanding that once Ariel receives her deck back from Nemo, that deck becomes her library and any further manipulation, including a final cut, is deck manipulation (GPE) with a penalty of a warning in a Competitive Tournament.

I'm sorry if this is an elementary question, but as I've now had it come up with more than one playgroup I thought I'd get your opinions on the matter for everyone's benefit.

Thank you for your time,
Alan C. Cleaver

April 22, 2013 03:40:50 PM

Robert Hinrichsen
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Foundry))

Canada - Eastern Provinces

"Final Cut" after shuffling an opponent's deck

It used to be the case that one final cut was permitted after an opponent shuffled one's deck (but not if the opponent merely cut the deck). I too was surprised to learn of the change when I first looked into becoming a judge, and the answer I received when I asked for a reason was that it was believed to be easier for a player to manipulate their own deck if they were the last to touch it (they could, for instance, palm a key card and drop it on top of the deck during the cut maneuver.) It is not an altogether persuasive explanation (I'm sure expert manipulators could achieve the same end even without the cut), but then I don't really see the need for a final cut to begin with, given that both players are giving the deck a thorough shuffle.

April 22, 2013 03:50:45 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

"Final Cut" after shuffling an opponent's deck

The Comp Rules were changed a few years ago, to no longer allow the “final cut”.

The old wording allowed you to cut your own deck, but only cut it, and only if your opponent actually shuffled it. (You couldn't do a cut if they only did a cut.)

However, it's much more likely that you'll simply instruct a player who does that of their error, and tell them not to do that again. “Deck Manipulation” is no longer described in the IPG at all, and certainly not as a Game Play Error; it was a sub-category of Cheating (Manipulation of Game Materials, more precisely). Since it's not a specific infraction, and it's a violation of the MTR (not the CR), it's one of those “don't do that again!” things.

Unless, of course, it becomes apparent that the player knew they can't cut after the opponent shuffles, but did so anyway because they thought it was to their advantage to break that rule. That's still Cheating.

Short version: not allowed; please educate.