This came up at the Aether Revolt Pre-release.

A player had two decks, one geared toward agro and one not. He wanted to know if he could know the result of the die roll (or other random method) before choosing which deck to present to his opponent.

I didn't see in the MTR which operation to be completed first though MTR 2.2 Play/Draw Rule (which includes die roll) comes before MTR 2.3 Pregame Procedures (which includes deck presentation).

I told the player that he should present his deck first as that is how matches typically start but I'm hoping I just overlooked the correct answer.

Can anyone help me out?

The big no-no for dice is determining match outcomes. Deck selection though? On one hand, you could fashion a reasonable argument that randomly choosing the deck could influence the outcome. On the other hand, a player is using a random method to assist in making a decision - similar to “should I attack all out or not?” (I've never seen that happen FYI).

My advice to the player would be this - avoid dice rolling wherever possible. At best, it “just looks bad”. At worst, it could be taken very badly. It's sort of a high risk low reward kind of deal. Given that it's a prerelease, ask him about what the two decks are like. See if it sounds like he prefers one over the other. Also since it's a prerelease, you;re well within your remit to just say “I think this deck is better for game 1, so try that and change if it doesn't go well”. Take the dice rolling off the table. And you may even make a friend if your advice holds out (or a Mortal Enemy™!)

I think what he means is: highest chooses? And then, if I win, I'll present my aggro deck, if I lose I'll present my control deck, or something of the like.


________________________________
Van: Mark Mc Govern <forum-32858-5a38@apps.magicjudges.org>
Verzonden: woensdag 18 januari 2017 17:39
Aan: bemindt_jona@hotmail.com
Onderwerp: Re: Die Roll then Present Deck or Present Deck then Die Roll (Regular REL)


The big no-no for dice is determining match outcomes. Deck selection though? On one hand, you could fashion a reasonable argument that randomly choosing the deck could influence the outcome. On the other hand, a player is using a random method to assist in making a decision - similar to “should I attack all out or not?” (I've never seen that happen FYI).

My advice to the player would be this - avoid dice rolling wherever possible. At best, it “just looks bad”. At worst, it could be taken very badly. It's sort of a high risk low reward kind of deal. Given that it's a prerelease, ask him about what the two decks are like. See if it sounds like he prefers one over the other. Also since it's a prerelease, you;re well within your remit to just say “I think this deck is better for game 1, so try that and change if it doesn't go well”. Take the dice rolling off the table. And you may even make a friend if your advice holds out (or a Mortal Enemy™!)

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The dice roll is for play/draw. the player has two deck, i asume one if he gets to play and the other if he draws first.

I don't know the answer but it feels like you are not locked with one deck until you present it

Ah - I've misunderstood the question have I? Is the question:
“can I wait to decide which deck I play until I know if I'm on the play or draw?”

I thought the question was:
“I've two fun decks but can't decide which one to play with - can I roll a die to decide?”

Mark,

It's the former (decide which deck to play until he knows if he's on the play or draw). Sorry, I see how my original wording was poorly chosen.

Hey, it's a prerelease - seems like it's in the spirit of “have fun, learn the new cards”.

And, since this will never matter in a Competitive or Professional REL event - you do what makes your players happiest.

d:^D

The players asks if he can sideboard after determining who goes first.

He can't and I'd tell him that. I'd also try to explain he has not two
decks, but one deck and a sideboard plan, to prevent the player from
running into serious trouble at other enforcement levels.

On Jan 18, 2017 6:52 PM, “Scott Marshall” <
forum-32858-7ea8@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:

>

> Hey, it's a prerelease - seems like it's in the spirit of “have fun,
learn the new cards”.
>
> And, since this will never matter in a Competitive or Professional REL
event - you do what makes your players happiest.
>
> d:^D
>
> ——————————————————————————–
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Originally posted by Evertjan van Veelen:

The players asks if he can sideboard after determining who goes first.

He can't…

Well, he/she actually can. In prerelease events, players are not obligated to playing the same deck in game 1 of each match. (That's why we don't need to use deck lists at prereleases.) They can change the cards in their main deck between matches as they please.

Originally posted by Evertjan van Veelen:

…to prevent the player from
running into serious trouble at other enforcement levels.

I'm sure this won't be a problem at limited competitve REL events because the player is going to register their main deck on a deck list and he/she should get the idea that “pre-sideboarding” is not going to be allowed.
What do you think?

He can sideboard between and before matches and games (mtr 7.2.), but not
in the middle of the match and (also) not after starting players have been
decided (mtr 2.3.1 and 2.3.3). I agree with Chris that the order in which
these activities are mentioned in the mtr is the order in which they must
be done: otherwise you could present a deck, have it shuffled and then
sideboard, without shuffling afterwards: that would be weird.

Because of the players confusion between having a deck and a sideboard and
not having “two decks” I'd consider the possibility that the player (at his
first comp - REL tournament) registers “two” decks and tries to do the same
thing, although I will admit that chance is small.

I'd also consider the point of view of the opponent, because allowing a
player to break a rule (mtr 2.3.1) for a perceived advantage, doesn't seem
fun or fair for the opponent.

The answer to this question is actually laid out fairly explicitly in the Comprehensive Rules:

Originally posted by CR 103.1:

At the start of a game, each player shuffles his or her deck so that the cards are in a random
order. Each player may then shuffle or cut his or her opponents’ decks. The players’ decks become
their libraries.

Originally posted by CR 103.2:

After the decks have been shuffled, the players determine which one of them will choose who
takes the first turn. (…)

I don't think that leaves much room for debate.

Originally posted by Robert Hinrichsen:

The answer to this question is actually laid out fairly explicitly in the Comprehensive Rules:

Originally posted by CR 103.1:

At the start of a game, each player shuffles his or her deck so that the cards are in a random
order. Each player may then shuffle or cut his or her opponents’ decks. The players’ decks become
their libraries.

Originally posted by CR 103.2:

After the decks have been shuffled, the players determine which one of them will choose who
takes the first turn. (…)

I don't think that leaves much room for debate.

Hmm. Good catch, Rob. That probably invalidates what I said earlier.

So what should we do if, in a prerelease, we see players determining who goes first before presenting their decks for game one and we notice one of them owns two decks and waited until after the die roll to decide which deck to play for their match?

(Edited for clarity)

Edited Eric Paré (Jan. 18, 2017 03:47:45 PM)

Originally posted by Eric Paré:

So what should we do if, in a prerelease, we see players determining who goes first before presenting their decks for game one and we notice one of them owns two decks and waited until after the die roll to decide which deck to play for their match?

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

Hey, it's a prerelease - seems like it's in the spirit of “have fun, learn the new cards”.

And, since this will never matter in a Competitive or Professional REL event - you do what makes your players happiest.

You may want to educate the players on the rules (thanks, Robert!), but let's not be too heavy handed ^^

Obviously you can't have them not play a deck. This is a classic “no
infraction” kind of situation, even at Comp REL (not that this kind of
thing could happen there, because then we have D/DLP). Yes, a rule has
been violated, but there's no need to do anything more than caution and
educate.

Educate the players that they have to pick a deck to play before they
determine who has choice of play or draw. Since they've already flipped
that around, a good solution could be to have them pick a deck and then
re-roll for play or draw.

Originally posted by Justin Miyashiro:

a good solution could be to have them pick a deck and then
re-roll for play or draw.

I don't feel comfortable with this fix because making both players re-roll after one of them already won the decision sounds unpleasant. We're talking about a detail in the CR of which I'm sure 99.9% of prerelease players have no clue about. That solution seems too heavy for something that was very likely committed without evil intentions.

Originally posted by Dustin De Leeuw:

You may want to educate the players on the rule

This is fair to do but I think this is too much of a harmless problem to have to interrupt the players during their match to explain a detail about the pregame procedure. If I do find myself wanting to educate the players, it will likely be between rounds when they're not playing so I don't hold up the tournament to explain something that might sound silly to two people who are just there to have fun.

Thoughts?

Edited Eric Paré (Jan. 18, 2017 04:52:39 PM)