I saw a situation this weekend that I'm not sure was handled correctly, so I'm looking for confirmation about the correct way to go about things:

With about 2 minutes left on the round clock, a judge is called over the legality of a particular play. The judge call takes about 5 minutes to resolve, and the responding judge gives the players a 5 minute time extension.

I'm under the impression that in situations like this where a call takes longer than the time remaining in the round, that the judge only gives an extension for the round time that was missed. That would mean, in the situation I saw, the judge would have only given a 2-minute extension instead of the 5-minute extension.

Who is right, me or the judge at the event? Assuming I am correct, if I see a judge make a mistake like this and think it may affect standings, is there a good way for me, as a spectator, to object to what is happening and try to convince them to do things differently?

Edit: I did talk to the HJ of the event afterward and explained that I think the FJ gave the longer time extension in error. We couldn't find anything definitive in the MTR to resolve things, but I have been instructed to only give the shorter time extension in the past, so I think I'm right, but I'm not sure where it comes from.

Edited Andrew Keeler (Jan. 30, 2017 10:23:34 AM)

MTR2.6 says that "If a judge pauses a match for more than one minute while the round clock is running, he or she should extend the match time appropriately." It is so because all players should have a full 50-minute round. If there were 2 minutes before time was called, even though the call would have taken more than that, the time extension should cover the time the judge used while the round clock was running.

The question is, what is the definition of “appropriately” :-D

From my point of view, as the players had 2 minutes left on the clock before the judge was called, they should not be given more…

I'll confirm what Julio and Milan said; the time extension should match the time lost from the round clock (generally rounded up).

I think the more interesting aspect of the question is the conversation starter in Andrew's last question. Arguing with the judge (and that is how it probably feels to that judge, as an argument) about their ruling, is always uncomfortable.

My suggestion is to make sure you don't use challenging language. “I think you're wrong”, no matter how you phrase it, is unlikely to work. Instead, something like “I thought it was …” or “Judge Joe taught me that …”.

Also, if your goal is to change the ruling they've already delivered, it's likely too late, and if you try to change the ruling while they're delivering it, it's even more discombobulating for them - which makes your task even more difficult. It's just human nature.

d:^D

As the HJ in the aforementioned post, I'd like to first commend Mr. Andrew Keeler in his professionalism on approaching me about this topic! And I'm glad he did!

Originally posted by Julio Sosa:

MTR2.6 says that “If a judge pauses a match for more than one minute while the round clock is running, he or she should extend the match time appropriately.” It is so because all players should have a full 50-minute round. If there were 2 minutes before time was called, even though the call would have taken more than that, the time extension should cover the time the judge used while the round clock was running.

If possible, I'd like a little clarification. I agree we want players to play a round of 50 minutes. So should not the time extension cover the time taken for the call? Consider: There are three minutes left on the clock. Judge is called and the ruling takes five minutes to deliver. That is five minutes they are not playing magic (game is paused for the purposes of the ruling being given). If we give a time extension of only 3 minutes, how much was remaining on the clock, that would mean they have had a 48 minute round. The difference may seem inconsequential, but we all know that a game can swing in a second's notice. How much leeway is given to the word “appropraitely” in the MTR?

Note: I'm not disagreeing with any of you, I fully understand and support it. But if our goal is to give players the 50 minutes (or however long their rounds are) they are entitled to, how can we justify giving a time extension that cuts this?

Thanks in advance!

Ghost_Stache

If a judge is called at 47 minutes into the round and the judge takes
5 minutes to rule. If 5 minutes of extension are given then the
players have 52 minutes to play their round. Giving 3 minutes of
extension gives them their correct 50 minutes.

The disconnect here is oddly similar to a conversation I had yesterday at an event…

It depends, I suppose, on how you define “time extension”. Scenario: A judge call starts with 3 minutes left on the clock, and takes 5 minutes. Clearly the players deserve 3 more minutes of play time before starting the extra turns.

1) If you're looking at the round clock, time will end at +00:05:00. You might think of this as a 5 minute time extension, of which the first 2 minutes have been used.

2) If you're starting a timer on your watch, you will set a timer for 3 minutes. you might think of this as a 3 minute time extension.

So, perhaps you're both right?

You are a smart man Dan.

An important thing is that such a game shouldn't be left without judge
supervision, it's the tall nail now :)

Make sure that any judge left watching it understands what is going
on. If it must be left the +5m is probably the most useful thing to
leave on the slip

Julio did not add emphasis for nothing:

Originally posted by Julio Sosa:

MTR2.6 says that "If a judge pauses a match for more than one minute while the round clock is running, he or she should extend the match time appropriately."

Once the round clock stops running, the extension stops growing.

To throw a wrench into this:

If, perhaps, the call starts at 47 minutes into the round, and takes 5 minutes, but the table already has a 5 minute extension from an earlier situation, how long of a time extension do you give?

Originally posted by Seth Black:

If, perhaps, the call starts at 47 minutes into the round, and takes 5 minutes, but the table already has a 5 minute extension from an earlier situation, how long of a time extension do you give?

Outside of the math problem, the answer here is that the players should always have up to fifty minutes to complete their match. Extensions are effectively time taken away from the match, so give them however much time they need to get to fifty minutes of actual play time.

Originally posted by Kyle Gorbski:

If we give a time extension of only 3 minutes, how much was remaining on the clock, that would mean they have had a 48 minute round.

I'm confused - how does 47 minutes of playtime plus 3 minutes of extension mean a 48 minute round?

Originally posted by Rob Marti:

Originally posted by Kyle Gorbski:

If we give a time extension of only 3 minutes, how much was remaining on the clock, that would mean they have had a 48 minute round.

I'm confused - how does 47 minutes of playtime plus 3 minutes of extension mean a 48 minute round?

I think the concern would be something like: There were only three minutes left on the round clock when this call started, so you will have a three minute time extension. Since the round ended two minutes ago, two of the three minutes have already been used up, so you now have one minute remaining of the extension. Basically, two of the three minutes the players were entitled to would be eaten up by the ongoing judge call.

I will note that this problem doesn't apply if we start the time extension at the conclusion of the judge call, not as soon as the clock hits zero.

You should only arrive in such a state if you're mixing your measurements. If you rely on the round clock for all of your time information, then you should continue only using the round clock for calculating extensions - this is the disconnect Dan Collins was talking about earlier in the thread.

If your total time on a call was from 3:00 remaining to +2:00, then you can safely say “+5” and simply call time on the match when the clock hits +5:00 - those two minutes from 0:00 to +2:00 aren't counted as consumable time, and indeed have already been consumed to create equilibrium as a consequence of the ruling.

But if you are prone to using your own timers independent of the round clock to do your timekeeping, then you need to be able to calculate how much match time was consumed and calculate the time to match end independently of the round clock.

Personally, I'd use the former, since it's easier math.

Edited Rebecca Lawrence (Feb. 2, 2017 07:54:49 PM)