Hey folks welcome back to this weeks Knowledge Pool! This week is a silver scenario, so L2s please wait till Friday to join the discussion. Here you go:

Adrian and Nina are playing in a Standard PPTQ. Adrian cast Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet during his pre-combat main phase and proceeds to attack with his Ishkanah, Grafwidow. Nina blocks with her Thraben Inspector and before damage she sacrifices Selfless Spirit to make her creatures indestructible. On Adrian's end step Nina activates her Evolving Wilds to search for Plains. Nina draws her card for the turn and then realizes that the Selfless Spirit wasn't exiled, and Adrian didn't create a Zombie token. JUDGE

Edited Brandon Welch (March 8, 2017 10:37:12 AM)

Will this not be using the Google Form submission that was used in the last KP scenario? Withholding my response just in case..

We are currently using Google Form submission for Bronze Scenarios, since they usually are the most straightforward answers.

If there is enough demand we could switch methods, but for now feel free to post your answer in the thread.

-The KP folks

Cool, thanks Jeff!

Assuming no cheating and after adequate investigation, my response is that this is a Game Rule Violation with matching Failure to Maintain Game State. Kalitas's ability is a static ability which creates a replacement effect and is not a trigger. It results in changing the destination of a non-token creature that should have gone to the graveyard, as well as creating a zombie token. Issue Adrian a warning for GRV and Nina a warning for FtMGS, move Selfless Spirit to the correct zone (Exile) and create the 2/2 zombie.

Edited Bernie Hoelschen (March 8, 2017 11:23:45 AM)

Double GRV: AP controls the replacement effect and didn't put in the token, NAP didn't exile selfless spirit. Zone change fix is applied and AP gets his token, warnings for both.

Originally posted by Bernie Hoelschen:

Assuming no cheating and after adequate investigation, my response is that this is a Game Rule Violation with matching Failure to Maintain Game State. Kalitas's ability is a static ability which creates a replacement effect and is not a trigger. It results in changing the destination of a non-token creature that should have gone to the graveyard, as well as creating a zombie token. Issue Adrian a warning for GRV and Nina a warning for FtMGS, move Selfless Spirit to the correct zone (Exile) and create the 2/2 zombie.

Hi Bernie,

I fully agree on GRV + FtMGS, but I'm pretty sure we cant use a partial fix in this case.

Originally posted by IPG 2.5 Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation:

If the infraction falls into one of the following categories, and only into that category, perform the fix specified unless a simple backup is possible:

Since Kalitas' replacement effect exiles the spirit and creates a Zombie Token we can't use the incorrect Zone Partial Fix.

Instead we have to consider a backup: Looking at everything that's happened since the spirit died we see a shuffle of Evolving Wilds, followed by a card draw, which means as part of our backup we would shuffle away a random card form Nina's Hand. At this point I would deem the backup to disruptive, explain this to the players and leave the gamestate as is.

I agree with what Bernie says however I believe this is a double GRV warning to both players as this situation is the responsibility of both players. It is a similar example to the double GRV example given regarding Path to Exile.

Graham Theobalds

Sent from my iPhone

On 8 Mar 2017, at 19:25, Bernie Hoelschen <forum-34023-dad6@apps.magicjudges.org<mailto:forum-34023-dad6@apps.magicjudges.org>> wrote:


Cool, thanks Jeff!

Assuming no cheating and after adequate investigation, my response is that this is a Game Rule Violation with matching Failure to Maintain Game State. Kalitas's ability is a static ability which creates a replacement effect and is not a trigger. It results in changing the destination of a non-token creature that should have gone to the graveyard, as well as creating a zombie token. Issue Adrian a warning for GRV and Nina a warning for FtMGS, move Selfless Spirit to the correct zone (Exile) and create the 2/2 zombie.

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In thinking about this a little more, GRV to each player seems to make the most sense (specifically based on the Path to Exile example, but more specifically because Nina was moving her permanent to the graveyard, and
both players involved have the responsibility to ensure that the creature ends up where it is supposed to due to the static ability of Kalitas).

Also, as pointed out by Henning above, the wrong zone fix doesn't appear to apply here due to the second part of the ability (create a zombie). I suppose the ultimate question becomes whether or not that point holds water or not.

Ruling: Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet is not a triggered ability but a replacement effect, which means that it cannot simply be missed. I agree with a double GRV - NAP didn't exile her Selfless Spirit and AP didn't create his Zombie token.

Fix: Although Selfless Spirit is in the wrong zone, and there should be one more Zombie token on the battlefield, too much has happened since the error to be able to backup cleanly. Backing up through an Evolving Wilds and a draw is too complicated and doing so would significantly disrupt the game-state, particularly because we'd be shuffling away a random card from NAP's hand (yikes). No partial fix applies, so we leave the game as-is.

Side note for Hoelschen:

both players involved have the responsibility to ensure that the creature ends up where it is supposed to

This is actually the reason we give FMGS, and not for giving GRVs. If this was AP's only mistake, then it would only be FMGS. He receives a GRV because the exile was HIS effect to make sure it went to the right place, not just because it ended up in the wrong zone.

Like mentioned before, give GRV - W for both players. However, fix is the difficult part. IPG clearly states if a card is in the wrong zone, we should fix it (if it doesn't disrupt the game. In this case, it doesn't). So we should move Selfless Spirit from graveyard to exile. However, creating the zombie is not covered in IPG and backing up is not possible, thus we don't put on the battlefield. In summary, double GRV-W, put Selfless Spirit into exile but don't create 2/2 zombie.

I wasn't quite sure where to go with this one either.

I agree with the GRV - W for both players, as per the Path to Exile scenario, but I am not sure whether exiling the Selfless Spirit and making a 2/2 Zombie or just leaving the game state as is would be the right way to go. I am pretty sure we cannot do half, i.e. exile the spirit and not make a token. Also, the backup is far too disruptive due to shuffling away the random card from Ns hand.

Generally, I would be tempted to go with exiling the Spirit and making a token, but I can see why leaving the gamestate as is would be another way to go, especially since making a zombie complicates the wrong zone fix.

Originally posted by Callum McFadyen:

I agree with the GRV - W for both players, as per the Path to Exile scenario, but I am not sure whether exiling the Selfless Spirit and making a 2/2 Zombie or just leaving the game state as is would be the right way to go. I am pretty sure we cannot do half, i.e. exile the spirit and not make a token. Also, the backup is far too disruptive due to shuffling away the random card from Ns hand.

We are not splitting the ability. We look at how the board state would have been if everything went as it should and try to make it as close as possible. We can do that by exiling spirit but putting token is too disruptive and not covered in IPG, which we should follow.

Edited Gediminas Usevičius (March 9, 2017 07:56:43 AM)

I would have thought that since exiling the creature and making the token are part of the same effect, we have to either do it completely or not at all. And since the token isn't covered in the IPG, you would just have to leave the board as it is.

I don't believe the IPG mentions any of the partial fixes for GRVs are resolving an ability. I think the fact that something else would happen at the same time as selfless spirit being exiled is distracting from the definition of the partial fix.

Originally posted by MIPG 2.5:

• If an object is in an incorrect zone either due to a required zone change being missed or due to being put into the wrong zone during a zone change, the identity of the object was known to all players, and it can be moved with only minor disruption to the state of the game, put the object in the correct zone.

The ability of Kalitas requires a zone change for the Selfless Spirit. Since Selfless Spirit was put into the wrong zone because of that change we can apply the partial fix. If the replacement was applied correctly he would get a zombie. I personally believe the fact that a zombie would have been created does not exempt the selfless spirit from the zone change fix.

I would issue double GRV and put the selfless spirit in exile, and not create a token (because nothing about the token being created is mentioned in said partial fix)

Originally posted by Gediminas Usevičius:

Like mentioned before, give GRV - W for both players. However, fix is the difficult part. IPG clearly states if a card is in the wrong zone, we should fix it (if it doesn't disrupt the game. In this case, it doesn't). So we should move Selfless Spirit from graveyard to exile. However, creating the zombie is not covered in IPG and backing up is not possible, thus we don't put on the battlefield. In summary, double GRV-W, put Selfless Spirit into exile but don't create 2/2 zombie.

Actually, I don't think we can separate the moving of Selfless Spirit and creating the Zombie token – they are the same effect, so I think we should choose to either do them both, or do neither (unless it states otherwise in the IPG, which it doesn't). In this case, neither, since it would be too disruptive.

This has been repeated in several other comments, but I'm not sure we're all listening to each other and responding to one another… Just trying to clarify :)