Originally posted by Brook Gardner-Durbin:

My argument against that is I feel the player has already made a choice on the bottom card, and I don't want to allow them to change that if they've reconsidered.

I also feel as though they've made a choice on the top card.

HCe fix gives the opponent an opportunity to chose which card that choice was made on

Originally posted by Russell Deutsch:

I also feel as though they've made a choice on the top card.

I disagree that putting a 2nd card into the hand from misresolving Serum Vision's scry = making a choice to leave that card on top of the deck – I see that as just a total failure to resolve the spell, and we need to redo that piece of the spell (which means scrying correctly, not forcing them to scry to top)

Originally posted by Frank Rodriguez:

HCE doesn't allow you to choose at random, right?

Thank you, you are correct. So then the solution would be to reveal their hand to their opponent and their opponent may choose one card to put on top of the library.

Whoops! After reviewing the initial situation I agree with you Brook. I was under the impression that the player had announced “one top, one bottom” then drew the card instead of putting it on top.

I was also trying to jam my response into my iPhone as my plane was taxiing for takeoff to GP San Antonio. Super excited to see y'all there!

I think in this scenario we should apply HCE to the hand and allow the player to scry both the top and bottom card again.
The reason being that we should restore the set of cards in question back to a proper set and resolve the spell correctly.
The possibility to take advantage of feels marginal at best.
Leaving the card on the bottom gives us a forced scenario of “Draw a card. Scry1. Scry1”
Ultimately this feels incorrect and we should be fine with allowing the player to make their decision based on the appropriate resolution of the Serum Visions.

Originally posted by Robert Maes:

I think in this scenario we should apply HCE to the hand and allow the player to scry both the top and bottom card again.
The reason being that we should restore the set of cards in question back to a proper set and resolve the spell correctly.
The possibility to take advantage of feels marginal at best.
Leaving the card on the bottom gives us a forced scenario of “Draw a card. Scry1. Scry1”
Ultimately this feels incorrect and we should be fine with allowing the player to make their decision based on the appropriate resolution of the Serum Visions.

I am with you, Robert. It seems like according to Policy 1.leaving the card A on bottom and letting the scry with card B and 2. Redo scry with A and B are both correct. Just determines what your definition of a set is.

Originally posted by Robert Maes:

Leaving the card on the bottom gives us a forced scenario of “Draw a card. Scry1. Scry1”
Ultimately this feels incorrect and we should be fine with allowing the player to make their decision based on the appropriate resolution of the Serum Visions.

I think this argument is flawed. The appropriate resolution of Serum Visions isn't going to happen no matter what- Serum Visions doesn't normally allow NAP to choose a card from AP's hand either. An error has already occurred at this point, and nothing we can do will completely erase that error. All we can do now is attempt to mitigate the error as much as possible.

By putting the card on the bottom of his library, AP has, in my opinion, clearly indicated his choice for where he wanted that card to go. I see no reason to allow AP to change that choice after learning what NAP is choosing from his hand. The HCE remedy is perfectly comfortable acting on only the part of a set that contained the error, and I don't see a reason not to do so in this case.





As for whether AP should get the choice of where to put the card chosen by NAP, I think he should in fact get the choice. AP putting the card into his hand is an error, and we can't interpret that error as a choice to put the card on top any more than we can as a choice to put the card on the bottom. AP should be able to put that card in one of the three places it could have been had Serum Visions been resolved correctly.

Originally posted by Robert Maes:

Leaving the card on the bottom gives us a forced scenario of “Draw a card. Scry1. Scry1”

Originally posted by Isaac King:

AP should be able to put that card in one of the three places it could have been had Serum Visions been resolved correctly.

It seems as though a lot of the discussion about the proper fix is missing some of the nuance here. No one is advocating for a result of “scry 1, scry 1” as the fix. If we take the current bottom card of the library as the card that was scried to the bottom, then the three places the excess card could end up are:
1) on top of the library
2) above the bottom card of the library (making it second from the bottom)
3) below the bottom card of the library (making it the new bottom card of the library)

These are all the configurations that would be possible assuming the other card remains scried to the bottom, so there shouldn't be a concern about this becoming a “scry 2” -> “scry 1, scry 1” situation.

I will note that, based on my reading of the IPG, preserving the previously scried card on the bottom looks like a deviation. Specifically:

Originally posted by Additional Remedy:

In cases where the infraction was immediately followed by moving a card from the affected set to a known location, such as by discarding, putting cards on top of the library, or playing a land, a simple backup to the point just after the error may be performed.

seems to want us to back up the putting the card on the bottom. I know that this line wasn't meant to apply to this situation since the “affected set” is the hand, not the scry set, but this being here does seem to argue in favor of the “re-scry both of the cards” position.

Taking the example from a recent Knowledge Pool scenario, if a player casts Veteran Motorist with the incorrect mana, we don't say “it's obvious that they intended to cast the motorist, so we'll just have them back up to the ‘pay costs’ step of casting the spell.” We either back up the whole casting of the spell or none of it. Philosophically, I think we're on very similar ground here.

Originally posted by Andrew Keeler:

In cases where the infraction was immediately followed by moving a card from the affected set to a known location, such as by discarding, putting cards on top of the library, or playing a land, a simple backup to the point just after the error may be performed.

My opinion is that this sentence can't be applied here. There was no action after the error that must be undone in order to make the HCE fix smoother.

I think that I'd simply let NAP choose a card among those in AP's hand I'd allow him (AP) to decide where to put it (top or bottom of his library).

Edited Jacopo Strati (April 3, 2017 03:48:27 PM)

Originally posted by Isaac King:

Originally posted by Robert Maes:

Leaving the card on the bottom gives us a forced scenario of “Draw a card. Scry1. Scry1”
Ultimately this feels incorrect and we should be fine with allowing the player to make their decision based on the appropriate resolution of the Serum Visions.

I think this argument is flawed. The appropriate resolution of Serum Visions isn't going to happen no matter what- Serum Visions doesn't normally allow NAP to choose a card from AP's hand either. An error has already occurred at this point, and nothing we can do will completely erase that error. All we can do now is attempt to mitigate the error as much as possible.

By putting the card on the bottom of his library, AP has, in my opinion, clearly indicated his choice for where he wanted that card to go. I see no reason to allow AP to change that choice after learning what NAP is choosing from his hand. The HCE remedy is perfectly comfortable acting on only the part of a set that contained the error, and I don't see a reason not to do so in this case.





As for whether AP should get the choice of where to put the card chosen by NAP, I think he should in fact get the choice. AP putting the card into his hand is an error, and we can't interpret that error as a choice to put the card on top any more than we can as a choice to put the card on the bottom. AP should be able to put that card in one of the three places it could have been had Serum Visions been resolved correctly.

You mean bottom, 2nd from bottom, or top?

Yes.