Edited Brandon Welch (April 5, 2017 10:25:59 AM)
Edited Kent Hays (April 11, 2017 01:35:01 PM)
Edited Megan McGuire (April 5, 2017 10:21:59 AM)
Originally posted by Megan Holden:
What mana was paid for Oath of Nissa? I'm curious to know if he paid (G) or (2)(U) for Oath of Jace.
Edited Brandon Welch (April 5, 2017 10:30:54 AM)
Edited Edward Bryn Pitt (April 5, 2017 01:02:53 PM)
Originally posted by Bryn Pitt:
The tricky part of this is deciding the “correct location” to which the excess cards should be returned. While it might be argued that the excess cards should be shuffled into the random portion of the library (followed by correctly resolving the Oath trigger), I believe this option is potentially abusable. For example, if Andrew's hand contains all lands, he would get to shuffle away 3 lands and look at three new cards for the Oath trigger. Even if we do not suspect Andrew of cheating to intentionally gain this advantage, this remedy would still be to his benefit.
I believe the “correct location” for the cards is the top of the library, where Andrew is allowed to look at them while resolving the Oath trigger. So, to remedy this HCE, I would instruct Andrew to reveal his hand to Nadine (don't forget that the discarded cards should be returned to the hand first), and then instruct Nadine to choose 3 cards (the excess cards). I would then have Andrew resolve the Oath trigger using those three cards (which are technically on the top of his library while he is looking at them). He should make a legal selection of one of the cards (if possible) and then put the remaining cards on the bottom of his library in any order. Andrew receives a warning for HCE.
Originally posted by Kimberly McDonald:Originally posted by Bryn Pitt:
The tricky part of this is deciding the “correct location” to which the excess cards should be returned. While it might be argued that the excess cards should be shuffled into the random portion of the library (followed by correctly resolving the Oath trigger), I believe this option is potentially abusable. For example, if Andrew's hand contains all lands, he would get to shuffle away 3 lands and look at three new cards for the Oath trigger. Even if we do not suspect Andrew of cheating to intentionally gain this advantage, this remedy would still be to his benefit.
I believe the “correct location” for the cards is the top of the library, where Andrew is allowed to look at them while resolving the Oath trigger. So, to remedy this HCE, I would instruct Andrew to reveal his hand to Nadine (don't forget that the discarded cards should be returned to the hand first), and then instruct Nadine to choose 3 cards (the excess cards). I would then have Andrew resolve the Oath trigger using those three cards (which are technically on the top of his library while he is looking at them). He should make a legal selection of one of the cards (if possible) and then put the remaining cards on the bottom of his library in any order. Andrew receives a warning for HCE.
While I agree the correct fix is to reveal the hand to NAP and allow for selection of the three cards, doesn't putting them back to the top of the library still lead to possible abuse? NAP could select three cards which are not legal targets for Oath of Nissa (enchantments, instants, etc) and force those cards to be used to resolve the trigger.
I believe shuffling away the cards to be the best, and perhaps appropriate, fix. There's not really a way to resolve the issue that couldn't be deemed “abusable” or “beneficial” to either player. But that's we have the IPG to guide our rulings and fixes and we serve as impartial arbiters of the game.
Edited Edward Bryn Pitt (April 5, 2017 12:46:45 PM)
Excess cards are returned to the correct location. If that location is the library, they should be shuffled into the random portion unless the owner previously knew the identity of the card/cards illegally moved; that many cards, chosen by the opponent, are returned to the top of the library instead. For example, if a player playing with Sphinx of Jwar Isle illegally draws a card, that card should be returned to the top of the library.
Edited Jakob Lernhage (April 10, 2017 11:44:21 PM)
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