This weekend I was on staff at the PTQ in Las Vegas. Early in the tournament their was an interesting call in regards to the two triggers on Howlpack Alpha, leading to a ruling of a missed wolf trigger on upkeep. After the call, I reworded the situation which lead to some debate among the L2 judge staff…

Player A controls a Mayor of Avabruck that has been transformed into Howlpack Alpha. On his turn he casts two spells, attacks with the Howlpack Alpha, then says “go.” His opponent then untaps, and as he would draw a card, Player A states “wait,” during upkeep, transform trigger, and I get a wolf. The two parts of this phrase occurs without hesitation before his opponent draws a card.

Does player A get the wolf token?

On investigation, it is found that opponent knows go means “it is your opponents turn.” It is apparent that he messed up the timing on the wolf trigger.

From MTR section 4.3: It is acceptable for players to engage in a block of actions that, while technically in an incorrect order, arrive at a legal and clearly understood game state once they are complete.

Citing example 1: A player discards a card to pay for Masticore's upkeep cost before untapping his or her land.

Can this be out of order sequencing?

This seems a little off to me, and it would depend on the timing of player
action…
But since the wolf trigger can still be on the stack after a “go” shortcut,
and the Alpha player acknowledged the two triggers when he had to, I'd say
it's likely OoOS.
I'd feel a lot better about this if he'd announced the wolf when the
opponent went to untap, though.

A lot here hinges on the specific actions of the players, had to be there,
etc…
On May 13, 2013 11:45 AM, “Michael Swager” <

From MTR 4.2:
“The statement ”Go“ (and equivalents such as ”Your turn“ and ”Done“) offers to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the end step. Opponents are assumed to be acting then unless they specify otherwise.”

From IPG 2.1:
“A trigger is considered missed once the controller of the trigger has taken an action after the point at which a trigger should have resolved or, in the case of a trigger controlled by the non-active player, after that player has taken an action that indicates they have actively passed priority.”

I think putting these two together shows that the active player has passed priority past the point when the wolf trigger would go on the stack and has missed the trigger. I think in this situation the onus should be on proving the trigger wasn't missed. i.e. the “had to be there” factors.

Adam, the problem with the trigger argument, is that the trigger could be on the stack when the player says go, because the player (because he is the AP) does not miss the trigger until he takes another action (after saying go), according to the missed trigger policy.

Here is the discussion point: Can out of order sequencing apply between steps and phases, or between two turns, if multiple triggers are involved that technically should have triggered at different times.

Do we not give the player the wolf because he waited to resolve it after the transform trigger? In this situation, immediately after stopping the active player, he mentions both triggers, and their was less than 2 seconds from the time the player says go, and the other player untaps, with no hesitation between announcing the two triggers.


* For full disclosure, I was on the side of Out of order sequencing, no one else on the staff was *

I think that player really forgot the token and he is trying to getting it back.

For me its ok: “go, put a wolf and transform” or “go, transform and wolf token”. But: “go” - opponent untaps - he is going to draw - “wait, transform and wolf” its a bit late for me; too many actions (and chances) to remember the trigger.

Anyways this is the kind of situation that depends of the feelings of the floor judge handling the ruling.

I don't really see how OOOS applies here. There wasn't a “block of actions that, while technically in an incorrect order, arrive at a legal and clearly understood game state once they are complete.”

If the other player had gone to untap and he had said, “Wait… I get my wolf”. I would be on the side of allowing the trigger to resolve with the onus being to prove it was missed. The fact that he waited until the draw step before announcing the trigger leads me to think he forgot the trigger, remembered he had to flip the card. Looking at the card remembered he had a trigger in the end step, and was announcing it now.

When I say I want the player to prove they didn't miss the trigger, what I mean is I'd be asking the player, “Why did you wait until now to announce the wolf?” My decision would be contingent on this. If he didn't have a good explanation I would rule it missed.

I would call this OoOS. I believe that it is when a player takes an action that the game moves along, otherwise “done” means “go to End of Turn step and yield priority.” That the opponent untapped indicates no responses, thus the player may point out a trigger resolving even though he never indicated it going onto the stack.

To not allow the token seems to be rules lawyering in a counterproductive way. While technically correct, this is neither a game of speed nor reflex.

I wasn't there, so I didn't see the exchange, but the timing length in between actions of either player seems irrelevant to me.

Good question!

Let's try to look at various documents on the topic.

1) “The statement ”Go“ (and equivalents such as ”Your turn“ and ”Done“) offers to keep passing priority until an opponent has priority in the end step.” (MTR)

2) “513.1. First, all abilities that trigger ”at the beginning of the end step“ or ”at the beginning of the next end step“ go on the stack. (See rule 603, ”Handling Triggered Abilities.“)…
513.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities. ” (Comp. Rules)

3) “A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state… The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved.” (IPG)

So, as far as I understand the situation:
1) A player says “Go” => He says he won't do anything until his opponent recieves priority in the end step.
2) When the opponent recieves priority in the end step, the wolf's trigger isn't missed yet (it's on the stack).
3) Then the opponent untaps. If he untaps, his turn has started, so the wolf's trigger had to be resolved before that moment. A player sees that and says that he has to recieve his wolf (as the wolf should appear on the battlefield here before the lands would be untapped for the opponent's turn).

And here's the problem from a player's point of view:
- As I say “go”, I'm waiting for any kind of response (or any kind of sigh) from my opponent, as my opponent has two options: he either can decide do something before my end of turn, or he can decide not to.
- If he decides not to, I have to recieve my token before my opponent's turn stats.
- After I say “go”, my opponent immediately starts untapping. That's the first action he takes, he didn't say anything and he didn't show me any other sigh that his turn is starting. That happened in two seconds after I said “go”.
- I see the sigh that my opponent decided not to do anything before his turn would start, and that sigh is that he quickly untaps and procedes to draw. At this moment I'm really oblidged to remind him that before his turn would start, I had to recieve my precious wolf token.

The opponent didn't give the player time to acknowledge his trigger. I feel this situation a lot alike a situation where NAP has an Angelic Skirmisher on the battlefield, and AP (in his first main phase) plays a sorcery spell, which resolves, then immediately taps his creatures to attack. NAP says “Wait, I have to choose smth as my Skirmisher's trigger resolves”, and AP responds “No, you missed it, as I already declared attackers and we're now in declare blockers step”. That sounds pretty close to Cheating for me.

So, to sum up - I don't know if this situation is OoOS or not, but my opinion is that the player should get his wolf.

Edited Alex Zhed (May 13, 2013 04:04:51 PM)

Executive summary: In most situations I would say that Avabruck gets to back the turn to upkeep, but caution them to be more proactive in announcing the trigger.

Long story:
First off, OoOS doesn't apply here, there's way too much time between “go” and “wolf” for that.

As noted above, saying “go” only shortcuts to the end step, during which the trigger obviously doesn't apply. The clean scenario is that Avabruck says “go” and the opponent doesn't want to do anything, has nothing to untap, and so simply draws for their turn. This is clearly moving the game along too fast, so Avabruck gets to interrupt, and back up the turn for the trigger.

However, here we have the more common scenario, where the opponent had to untap things before drawing. Technically, Avabruck is allowed to wait until all the permanents are untapped, and then interject the trigger before the card is drawn. While I might trust a robot to get that timing right, we poor humans suffer from reaction times that won't necessarily allow blurting out “trigger!” between the last untap and the card draw. So I would still say that Avabruck gets to say that the turn was advanced too quickly, and back up to the trigger.

However, I wouldn't say this is especially sporting of Avabruck. If the opponent is actually taking time to untap things, that will usually give Avabruck plenty of time to say “I have a trigger in your upkeep,” so Avabruck should just say this to keep things moving smoothly. In contrast, I would not expect Avabruck to have said “go and I have something in your upkeep”… it might remind the opponent of the trigger, affecting their end-step decisions. But nothing happens during untap, so there's no reason why Avabruck shouldn't announce the trigger at that time.

Now, if the opponent untaps their permanents, durdles/tanks for a bit, and then draws their card… Avabruck should be expected to mention the trigger during that sort of pause (I mean, what would they be waiting for, exactly?) so should not get to back things up.

Player A said go, and then waited until it was clearly Player B's upkeep before announcing any of his triggers, meaning that he was aware the transform trigger happened at the beginning of the upkeep. It seems to me that he forgot when the wolf trigger was supposed to happen, so to me, that says that he forgot it. I would definitely allow the Howlpack Alpha to transform back, but there's no way that the player gets a wolf token, as he has clearly allowed the opponent to take actions that cannot happen until after that trigger should have resolved (untapping his lands and moving to his draw step.)

But player B untapping his lands is the first indication player A gets that his token-trigger resolves.

“A trigger is considered missed once the controller of the trigger has taken an action after the point at which a trigger should have resolved or, in the case of a trigger controlled by the non-active player, after that player has taken an action that indicates they have actively passed priority.”

I think it's important to note here that a player who controls the trigger needs to have taken an action after the point when the trigger should have resolved. Note that saying “go” does not bring that player until after such a point, since “go” implies passing priority until the opponent has priority in the end step, and at the the first time this is the case, the trigger is still on the stack and has not yet resolved.

The player has until they first take an action or do something that clearly shows they pass priority (such as if his opponent asks “draw?” during their draw step and the player says “sure”) to acknowledge existence of the trigger. In this case, the player has not yet taken another action, so they get their trigger.

I think this is very cut and dry.

Originally posted by Darcy Alemany:

The player has until they first take an action or do something that clearly shows they pass priority (such as if his opponent asks “draw?” during their draw step and the player says “sure”) to acknowledge existence of the trigger.

Agreed.
If a player says “Go”, opponent asks “Can I start my turn?”, and then the player says “Yes”, that means that the player forgot the trigger.
If a player says “Go”, then sits silently for a a minute or two, while his opponent slowly untaps his permanents and draws a card, and then says “Wait, the trigger”, that means that the player forgot about the trigger. He had a lot of time to acknowledge it after it became clear that the opponent is rushing forward.
But if a player says “Go”, his opponent says nothing, starts quickly untapping and in 2 secs the player says “Wait, the trigger”, I can't consider this trigger as forgotten.

So as long as I have a trigger at the start of turn that I remember, I can resolve my end of turn triggers then by arguing that saying go was only until the end of turn?

Seems a bit like we're letting the player escape with forgetting his trigger.

I feel the real question is did the player forget his end of turn trigger? I've never had a player use the term “go” to pass till the end of turn. At all times it has been to indicate that it's the opponents turn. I know policy says otherwise.

Usually the player will end his turn by saying, end turn wolf. Go.

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via Vodafone-Celcom Mobile.

I believe this is really a “had to be there” scenario.
If I say go and my opponent ends up going for his draw so quick my first chance to note my trigger is then and I do then I have no problem letting it resolve. I can see the merit of saying go to see if my opponent has a response to my trigger.
If however the timing seems off to me and there seems to have been earlier points where I could have mentioned it, I would rule no wolf.

I believe the timing and wording used when announcing the trigger is key.

Cheers
Eskil Myrenberg
L2, Stockholm, Sweden

—–Original Message—–

From: Sashi Kumar Balakrishnan
Sent: 14 May 2013 11:18:42 GMT
To: cartaginem@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Mayor of Avabruck and Out of Order Sequencing (Competitive REL)

So as long as I have a trigger at the start of turn that I remember, I can resolve my end of turn triggers then by arguing that saying go was only until the end of turn?

Seems a bit like we're letting the player escape with forgetting his trigger.

I feel the real question is did the player forget his end of turn trigger? I've never had a player use the term “go” to pass till the end of turn. At all times it has been to indicate that it's the opponents turn. I know policy says otherwise.

Usually the player will end his turn by saying, end turn wolf. Go.

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via Vodafone-Celcom Mobile.

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