When exactly is a match considered to have started? The MTR does not provide an exact answer. Is it the instant both players have sat down? As soon as a pregame action is taken?

The reason I'm asking is because some rules (particularly Outside Assistance) care about whether the player is in a match or not.

Can a player take pregame actions while still standing, such as shuffling, presenting or rolling a die to see who goes first?

What if the first player to arrive starts shuffling and the second player moves behind the first player to scout his opponent's deck?

I had a case where one player picked up the top card of his opponent's deck to see what he would be playing against. Not cool, of course, but when discussing this with other judges we couldn't determine whether it was technically cheating, because he hadn't yet sat down.

Is there a difference between Regular and Competitive?

I think the common assumption is that it's when a player has sat down at the table. I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, because if there was, players would use that fixed line to their advantage - case in point, the player who thinks standing up while shuffling means that they haven't started. There's also the occasional situation of a player who can't sit - eg for medical reasons.

So my advice would be to apply common sense. “You'll know it when you see it” seems like an appropriate sentiment. If there's ever a judge call, you'll know fairly easily whether you consider the player(s) to have officially started the match or not.

I had a case where one player picked up the top card of his opponent's deck to see what he would be playing against. Not cool, of course, but when discussing this with other judges we couldn't determine whether it was technically cheating, because he hadn't yet sat down.

For me, this is somewhere between Outside Assistance and straight up Cheating. I'm going to need convincing that it's not the latter, as even someone with no knowledge of Magic rules would know that sneaking a look at your opponents cards is Bad.

Is there a difference between Regular and Competitive?

I don't think so. The only difference is that you're not likely to see it at Regular. Only at Competitive events where people are looking for some sort of edge.

I had a case where one player picked up the top card of his opponent's deck to see what he would be playing against. Not cool, of course, but when discussing this with other judges we couldn't determine whether it was technically cheating, because he hadn't yet sat down.

Cheating don't Care if the player is actualy in a match of not.
Cheating care only if a player break a rule on purpose to gain an avantage.

Here the player will have some difficulties to prove me he was unaware he cant do that.
Anyway, even if he does he will probably be in the area of Unsporting Conduct.

Edited Pascal Gemis (July 6, 2017 06:37:46 AM)

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, because if there was, players would use that fixed line to their advantage - case in point, the player who thinks standing up while shuffling means that they haven't started.

My fellow judges observed a type of player that is so married to their music that they will shuffle while standing up, so as to keep their earphones in for the highest allowable number of seconds. Is that fine, legal but frowned upon, or illegal?

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

Is there a difference between Regular and Competitive?

I don't think so. The only difference is that you're not likely to see it at Regular. Only at Competitive events where people are looking for some sort of edge.

It actually happened to me (I was the other player) at a so-Regular-it-was-almost-Casual Standard Showdown. :|

Originally posted by Pascal Gemis:

Cheating care only if a player break a rule on purpose to gain an avantage.

Of course, but if the match hadn't yet started, which rule was broken?

Originally posted by Jochem van 't Hull:

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule, because if there was, players would use that fixed line to their advantage - case in point, the player who thinks standing up while shuffling means that they haven't started.

My fellow judges observed a type of player that is so married to their music that they will shuffle while standing up, so as to keep their earphones in for the highest allowable number of seconds. Is that fine, legal but frowned upon, or illegal?

I think you're getting lost in the minutiae (involving things like “the highest allowable number of seconds” is usually a red flag): are they in a situation that requires interacting with their opponent? If yes, then their earphones are better off.
Is their own opponent shuffling? If yes, then they should probably be sitting down, because we don't want them to be seeing the shuffled cards because of their unusual position.
Are they in the way of other players? If yes, then please sit down.
Are they making reasonable efforts to be ready for their match to start as soon as possible? If no, they are slowing down the event.

Based on the answers to these questions, they probably needs to be educated that while we want their tournament to be as enjoyable for them as possible and listening to music is a great way for that, it shouldn't come to a point it is hurting other players and judges reasonable expectations.
Knowing when a match technically starts is not that much relevant.

- Emilien