Small 11 man GPT, rd 4. Two players in contention get dream crushed, the 1st place 9 pointer (Abe) is playing a 6 pointer (Vigota). One of the dreamcrushed players yell across the room to Abe, just scoop to him and you are both in. How do you handle this?

Issue 2: Arnie attacks with three creatures including a signal pest. Navin says “move to blockers”, Arnie replies “ok”, Navin points out that you missed signal pest trigger, Arnie says “ok”.

Navin bated Arnie into missing his trigger, is this ok? Is it now officially missed since he said ok? Normally the trigger is still there until it has a game effect, but is saying I missed it enough to move past it?

Situation 1: ML for Outside Assistance to the shouter. If Abe decides to scoop then, so be it, can't change that anymore. No Penalties for Abe or Vigota, unless the Info was solicited.

Situation 2: Arnie agreeing that he has forgotten the trigger makes me think he has…forgotten the trigger. The players are both agreeing on the gamestate, so it is ok for all I care. For good customer service, I might want to talk to the playres that Arnie could've gotten the trigger had he wished to.
But knowledge of the documents is considered skill, and since there was no infraction (basically, the situation as I understand it is that Navin asked Arnie ‘Forgot your signal pest trigger?’ and Arnie said ‘oh yes, you are right, I forgot that, my loss’), I don't see a reason to interfere.

Edited Philip Ockelmann (May 18, 2013 06:06:35 PM)

2. Did Navin ask it or state it? I think there's a difference between “Forgot your signal pest trigger?” (which is a question that can be answered with yes or no) and “You now missed the signal pest trigger” (which is a statement that isn't necessarily true)

Originally posted by Toby Hazes:

2. Did Navin ask it or state it? I think there's a difference between “Forgot your signal pest trigger?” (which is a question that can be answered with yes or no) and “You now missed the signal pest trigger” (which is a statement that isn't necessarily true)

Stated, “point out you missed your trigger”, “ok”

Lets look at both of these.

1) The question here is did the shouter give play advise to the player or give hidden information pertaining to the match. Really they did not, and while we definitely want to have a talk with that person and tell them its inappropriate to do, I don't see any penalty that would apply here.

2) Asking to move to another step or phase to me isn't baiting. The player is well within their rights to do that. But putting that aside, this kind of trigger changes the game state in a non-visible way. So the trigger should not be considered missed until after it affects the game state in a visable fasion. So in other words when damage is dealt, not when the game moves to the next step.

Originally posted by Cris Plyler:

Lets look at both of these.

1) The question here is did the shouter give play advise to the player or give hidden information pertaining to the match. Really they did not, and while we definitely want to have a talk with that person and tell them its inappropriate to do, I don't see any penalty that would apply here.

2) Asking to move to another step or phase to me isn't baiting. The player is well within their rights to do that. But putting that aside, this kind of trigger changes the game state in a non-visible way. So the trigger should not be considered missed until after it affects the game state in a visable fasion. So in other words when damage is dealt, not when the game moves to the next step.

1. Is the result of two other matches advice? Is it advice on draw math?
2. But if the player says yes I missed it, is it now missed? Is it baiting or cheating if Navine knew the new rules and the other player did not?

For 1), the info about the outcome of other matches is not information I should have when playing my match. Same reason we do not allow players to stand up during a match to look at the scoreboard once their neighbors have finished to see if a draw is now enough. If they know it/remembered it, good enough. If they do not, they can not use any information from outside the game, like the scoreboard or friends shouting/telling them the results of other (relevant) matches.

IPG 3.2 TE - Outside Assistance

- Gives play advice to players who have sat for their match.


I strongly consider ‘you can scoop and both are in’ play advice. I even consider ‘this guy won 2-1 against that guy’ play advice, because it gives me info about how I need to play my match in order to reach this or that threshold which I did not have prior to the tip.

Originally posted by Philip Körte:

For 1), the info about the outcome of other matches is not information I should have when playing my match. Same reason we do not allow players to stand up during a match to look at the scoreboard once their neighbors have finished to see if a draw is now enough. If they know it/remembered it, good enough. If they do not, they can not use any information from outside the game, like the scoreboard or friends shouting/telling them the results of other (relevant) matches.

IPG 3.2 TE - Outside Assistance

- Gives play advice to players who have sat for their match.


I strongly consider ‘you can scoop and both are in’ play advice. I even consider ‘this guy won 2-1 against that guy’ play advice, because it gives me info about how I need to play my match in order to reach this or that threshold which I did not have prior to the tip.

So if a friend walks past my table while I'm playing to make the cut and I ask them how is another game in contention going and they answer with the match result, would you give both of us a Outside Assistance penalty and match loss?

1) Play advice is literally advice about playing a match of Magic. It does
not pertain to tournament math. There is actually another thread about this
exact topic on this forum.

2) If a player could have missed a trigger and then says that he missed the
trigger, how has he not missed it? Even though there is not a way for a
player to force his opponent to miss a trigger, there needs to be a way
that he can discover whether it was missed. Suggesting “you missed your
trigger” vs asking “you missed your trigger?” doesn't make any difference
here. Either way, the opponent can say “No, I didn't” or call a judge, and
the game state will become perfectly clear to both players.

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

1) Play advice is literally advice about playing a match of Magic. It does
not pertain to tournament math. There is actually another thread about this
exact topic on this forum.

2) If a player could have missed a trigger and then says that he missed the
trigger, how has he not missed it? Even though there is not a way for a
player to force his opponent to miss a trigger, there needs to be a way
that he can discover whether it was missed. Suggesting “you missed your
trigger” vs asking “you missed your trigger?” doesn't make any difference
here. Either way, the opponent can say “No, I didn't” or call a judge, and
the game state will become perfectly clear to both players.

As I think on these I agree with these assessments, they were both cases where they initially rubbed me the wrong way, but off course that doesn't always mean they are wrong.

Originally posted by Joshua Feingold:

It does not pertain to tournament math. There is actually another thread about this
exact topic on this forum.

Could you send me a link to this other thread? I'd be interested in reading and participating in it. (I have having difficulty finding it.)

http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/post/10961/

Get dreamcrushed, then yell for your buddy to scoop you into the top X anyway? While this is not OA, I think I'd have a small chat with the player explaining why this was inappropriate. I generally dislike players yelling across the store at all, let alone to try and make the cut after losing a critical match. A warning for UC - Minor may serve as a valuable lesson…