This came up briefly in another topic. Basically, are players allowed to object to the use of a spindown dice after the opponent has already thrown a number with said dice?

On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 8:21 PM, Toby Hazes
<forum-4595-0f99@apps.magicjudges.org> wrote:
> This came up briefly in another topic. Basically, are players allowed to
> object to the use of a spindown dice after the opponent has already thrown a
> number with said dice?

My answer would be “Yes, if the opponent didn't give reasonable time
for the player to notice/object in advance, no if he did.” There are
good reasons to object to the use of a spindown die and I'm not going
to let a player force the use of a spindown just because he was quick
to grab a die.

This is a tricky question, and I would also appreciate some guidance on it, as I have encountered many players with disproportionately strong opinions on the matter. On the one hand, assuming an honest die-roller, there seems to be no good reason to view a spin-down die as less random than a regular d20. Anyone who insists otherwise is likely just superstitious. Barring some anomaly in the manufacturing process, the die should have an equal probability of landing on any of its faces. On the other hand, the close proximity of the high numbers to one another means that, with sufficient skill, a dishonest die-roller could cheat to gain advantage, and because it involves manipulating such a small object I think detecting this cheat would probably be quite difficult, even if one were specifically looking for it.

The pertinent question therefore becomes: is the potential for cheating sufficient to warrant a blanket disapproval of the use of spin-down dice to determine a random result? Personally, I think such a ban would be disproportionate, but I can see the argument for the other side.

The method needs to be mutually agreeable. If one player has an issue with it then its not mutual. Just ask the players to find something they both agree on and let them start playing.

Sent from my iPhone

i actually had this exact question come up at the recent SCG: St Louis
standard open with regards to rolling a die for Ral Zarek's ultimate. Most
players are going to be willing to work with the situation and their
opponent. I simply explained that both players need to agree that the
method of execution needs to be agreed upon for it to be acceptable.
Granted they were 3 rolls into the 5 set so I told them to proceed with
this set but be clear about issues they have with particular issues before
it gets to that point.

Spindowns won't be evenly manufactured. They are actually kind of terribly
unevenly manufactured, and have clearly different sizes for different
sides. This is true for the vast majority of dice you see normally, and is
not unique to spindowns, they are just extra terrible.

That said, if you are rolling the same die as the opponent, you have the
same advantages and disadvantages, so it is mostly moot.


~Rob

Originally posted by Robert McKenzie:

That said, if you are rolling the same die as the opponent, you have the
same advantages and disadvantages, so it is mostly moot.

Not if your opponent has practiced rolling the spin down life counter (I refuse to call it a “die”) to land at the high end. If I see players rolling one to decide who goes first, I always step in and tell them they should use something else.

I understand that quite some time ago a player received a DCI ban for improperly using spindown life counters in lieu of dice and rolling them in such a way as to gain an advantage.

Another judge suggested the following to me after I objected to using a spin down (before we had rolled): rather than the highest roller winning, choose odd or even. That way the spin down guy gets to roll his ‘die’, and the other person is satisfied that a random method was used.

Originally posted by Benjamin McDole:

The method needs to be mutually agreeable. If one player has an issue with it then its not mutual. Just ask the players to find something they both agree on and let them start playing.

And that is the reason that players are generally allowed to object to any randominzation method, even a regular dice roll, if it hasn't been agreed on, yet. Just rolling a dice without talking to the opponent beforehand won't cut it.

Or give players advice to let somebody call out “even” or “odd”, if he calls it right he chooses. With both a regular D20 and spindown D20 the odd and even numbers are distributed evenly so that “practicing” a throw doesn't work.

Originally posted by Mark Mc Govern:

Another judge suggested the following to me after I objected to using a spin down (before we had rolled): rather than the highest roller winning, choose odd or even. That way the spin down guy gets to roll his 'die', and the other person is satisfied that a random method was used.

I'd be good with that.

I did on one occasion have a player insist on flipping a coin rather than using dice.

Originally posted by Robert McKenzie:

That said, if you are rolling the same die as the opponent, you have the
same advantages and disadvantages, so it is mostly moot.

If one of the players “knows” how to “abuse” the life counter dice then the other player is at a disadvantage.

Niki Lin
Or give players advice to let somebody call out “even” or “odd”, if he calls it right he chooses. With both a regular D20 and spindown D20 the odd and even numbers are distributed evenly so that “practicing” a throw doesn't work.

This is actually the best recommendation how to use life counter as a dice.

I've on one occasion grabbed five regular six-sided die, and asked my opponent to determine play/draw “Highest possible Yahtzee score?” He won because he got the large straight to the 6 while mine only went to the 5.

From my old D&D Minis days I have strong reactions to spindowns where they were explicitly illegal. I do like the odd/even idea as an alternative.

If both players are happy with a randomisation method, however random or pseudo-random it is, unless there is obvious shenanigans going on and the method is not disruptive then we should live and let live.

If 1 player is objecting to a particular method try and find something both players can agree on, if 1 player is just being really awkward randomly determine for the match.

This topic should not be this complicated.