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Competitive REL » Post: Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Jan. 8, 2019 03:36:41 AM [Original Post]
- Olivier Jansen
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- USA - Northeast
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Nearly had this happen yesterday, and asking around, a bunch of different judges had different answers, so I'm hoping to get an response.
Player A shows up for a comp rel event, and his decklist isn't ready. He ends up with a game loss for tardiness.
His opponent, Player N, is late for the event, and shows up at his round 1 seat 6 minutes into the start of the round. He is issued a game loss for tardiness.
Do these game losses offset each other, and we go into a Bo3?
Some misc questions to go along:
Who chooses to be on the play or draw for Game 1?
Player A shows up for a comp rel event, and his decklist isn't ready. He ends up with a game loss for tardiness.
His opponent, Player N, is late for the event, and shows up at his round 1 seat 6 minutes into the start of the round. He is issued a game loss for tardiness.
Do these game losses offset each other, and we go into a Bo3?
Some misc questions to go along:
Who chooses to be on the play or draw for Game 1?
Jan. 8, 2019 10:53:28 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
A follow-up question was posed (privately), about my use of “do not affect the match score”. I apologize, I sometimes use English very casually, and that can confuse my meaning for non-native English speakers.
The example and question asked:
After game one, a midround deck check awards a Game Loss to each player. Is the match over, recorded 1-0?
In that example, the match continues until one player has won two games (or time expires).
To clarify, simultaneous Game Loss penalties are treated as if they never happened, and the match continues as per usual - but the penalties are still recorded as Game Loss in the reporting software.
In the very unlikely corner case where both players receive, simultaneously, Game Loss penalty during a game, just let that game and match continue (and record the penalties). This is unlikely, but if both players have already received multiple Warnings for GRV, then commit a double-GRV, it's possible…
d:^D
Edit: I've been informed by the MagicFest scorekeepers that they are able to assess Match Losses for both players; this has already been necessary for double no-shows, fairly common at GPs last year. Please use that, instead of undoing the match (as illustrated by Francesco's post); undoing the match is a useful trick when various other things go wrong and you need to re-pair just a couple matches.
The example and question asked:
After game one, a midround deck check awards a Game Loss to each player. Is the match over, recorded 1-0?
In that example, the match continues until one player has won two games (or time expires).
To clarify, simultaneous Game Loss penalties are treated as if they never happened, and the match continues as per usual - but the penalties are still recorded as Game Loss in the reporting software.
In the very unlikely corner case where both players receive, simultaneously, Game Loss penalty during a game, just let that game and match continue (and record the penalties). This is unlikely, but if both players have already received multiple Warnings for GRV, then commit a double-GRV, it's possible…
d:^D
Edit: I've been informed by the MagicFest scorekeepers that they are able to assess Match Losses for both players; this has already been necessary for double no-shows, fairly common at GPs last year. Please use that, instead of undoing the match (as illustrated by Francesco's post); undoing the match is a useful trick when various other things go wrong and you need to re-pair just a couple matches.
Edited Scott Marshall (Jan. 27, 2019 11:40:28 AM)
Jan. 8, 2019 12:29:27 PM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Although the most common reason for simultaneous Game Loss penalties is when deck checks discover errors for both players, that's not the only possibility - as you almost experienced, first-hand.
And, as stated in the IPG's definition of penalties, simultaneous Game Loss penalties do not affect the match score, but do need to be recorded in the reporting software.
d:^D
And, as stated in the IPG's definition of penalties, simultaneous Game Loss penalties do not affect the match score, but do need to be recorded in the reporting software.
d:^D
Jan. 8, 2019 10:53:28 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
A follow-up question was posed (privately), about my use of “do not affect the match score”. I apologize, I sometimes use English very casually, and that can confuse my meaning for non-native English speakers.
The example and question asked:
After game one, a midround deck check awards a Game Loss to each player. Is the match over, recorded 1-0?
In that example, the match continues until one player has won two games (or time expires).
To clarify, simultaneous Game Loss penalties are treated as if they never happened, and the match continues as per usual - but the penalties are still recorded as Game Loss in the reporting software.
In the very unlikely corner case where both players receive, simultaneously, Game Loss penalty during a game, just let that game and match continue (and record the penalties). This is unlikely, but if both players have already received multiple Warnings for GRV, then commit a double-GRV, it's possible…
d:^D
Edit: I've been informed by the MagicFest scorekeepers that they are able to assess Match Losses for both players; this has already been necessary for double no-shows, fairly common at GPs last year. Please use that, instead of undoing the match (as illustrated by Francesco's post); undoing the match is a useful trick when various other things go wrong and you need to re-pair just a couple matches.
The example and question asked:
After game one, a midround deck check awards a Game Loss to each player. Is the match over, recorded 1-0?
In that example, the match continues until one player has won two games (or time expires).
To clarify, simultaneous Game Loss penalties are treated as if they never happened, and the match continues as per usual - but the penalties are still recorded as Game Loss in the reporting software.
In the very unlikely corner case where both players receive, simultaneously, Game Loss penalty during a game, just let that game and match continue (and record the penalties). This is unlikely, but if both players have already received multiple Warnings for GRV, then commit a double-GRV, it's possible…
d:^D
Edit: I've been informed by the MagicFest scorekeepers that they are able to assess Match Losses for both players; this has already been necessary for double no-shows, fairly common at GPs last year. Please use that, instead of undoing the match (as illustrated by Francesco's post); undoing the match is a useful trick when various other things go wrong and you need to re-pair just a couple matches.
Edited Scott Marshall (Jan. 27, 2019 11:40:28 AM)
Jan. 8, 2019 11:39:18 PM
- Siyang Li
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- Greater China
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Hi Scott, I want to ask what happens, if one player who is 0-1，is about to receive a game loss ,while his opponent is receiving a match loss? Or if this situation should be treated differently.
I know this sounds like (sure is) a corner case, but this happened to one of our local judges during his PPTQ, and he brought up the question in Chinese judge community for some discussion, which didn't yield satisfactory conclusion. Here's what happend:
During a mid-round deckcheck, the judge found that player A, who's already 0-1 behind, had some marked cards in his deck, the judge decided the situation was not cheating but should apply the upgrade (game loss). But before the judge could deliver the ruling, some other player called for judge, which, somehow coincidently being A's opponent, player B, committing OA while he was waiting for DC and watching the game on the next table.
In this case, we have one player, who's 0-1 and going to receive a game loss, while his opponent, receiving a match loss.
Would these penalties be given out at the same time?
If so, how should we deal with the double loss situation, especially how do we practically deal with it on WER?
If not, are there any priorities, meaning which one would come first or any guidelines, in a situation like this?
Excuse me for my english. Thanks.
I know this sounds like (sure is) a corner case, but this happened to one of our local judges during his PPTQ, and he brought up the question in Chinese judge community for some discussion, which didn't yield satisfactory conclusion. Here's what happend:
During a mid-round deckcheck, the judge found that player A, who's already 0-1 behind, had some marked cards in his deck, the judge decided the situation was not cheating but should apply the upgrade (game loss). But before the judge could deliver the ruling, some other player called for judge, which, somehow coincidently being A's opponent, player B, committing OA while he was waiting for DC and watching the game on the next table.
In this case, we have one player, who's 0-1 and going to receive a game loss, while his opponent, receiving a match loss.
Would these penalties be given out at the same time?
If so, how should we deal with the double loss situation, especially how do we practically deal with it on WER?
If not, are there any priorities, meaning which one would come first or any guidelines, in a situation like this?
Excuse me for my english. Thanks.
Jan. 9, 2019 12:38:34 AM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
You're right that this is a corner case, in that it will happen very infrequently. As such, I don't believe we can, nor should, add specific policy for this.
Instead, I'll offer an Opinion, or how I'd handle it. I'd apply the more severe penalty immediately, and apply the lesser penalty (GL) to the next game that would be played - so the ML ends the match, and GL is applied to game one of the next round.
d:^D
Instead, I'll offer an Opinion, or how I'd handle it. I'd apply the more severe penalty immediately, and apply the lesser penalty (GL) to the next game that would be played - so the ML ends the match, and GL is applied to game one of the next round.
d:^D
Jan. 9, 2019 10:41:55 AM
- Siyang Li
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- Greater China
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Thanks uncle Scott, for the Opinion. :)
Jan. 18, 2019 07:07:59 AM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
A couple more clarifications.
First, when I say “penalties are still recorded as Game Loss” - that's a confusing phrase, I think. The penalties that get entered into the reporting software remain the same, but the Game Losses don't happen, at all. We want to ensure that we record what happens, for historical purposes.
Second, in the unusual case where GL and ML occur at the same time, and I recommended applying the most severe penalty first, so that ML ends the current match, and GL is applied to the next game that player plays: I base that logic on IPG 1.2: ‘If an error leads to multiple related infractions, only issue one with the most severe penalty.’
d:^D
First, when I say “penalties are still recorded as Game Loss” - that's a confusing phrase, I think. The penalties that get entered into the reporting software remain the same, but the Game Losses don't happen, at all. We want to ensure that we record what happens, for historical purposes.
Second, in the unusual case where GL and ML occur at the same time, and I recommended applying the most severe penalty first, so that ML ends the current match, and GL is applied to the next game that player plays: I base that logic on IPG 1.2: ‘If an error leads to multiple related infractions, only issue one with the most severe penalty.’
d:^D
Jan. 18, 2019 08:03:51 AM
- Hary
- Judge (Level 2 (UK Magic Officials)), Scorekeeper
- United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
(feel free to delete if I should make a new thread but I felt It was related)
I had a genuine situation in which, during a deck-check:
Player A was recieving a game loss for TE-DP.
Player B was recieving a game loss for both a seperate TE-DP and TE-DLP.
What is the correct way to apply this to a match score?
I believe that because player B is receiving two penalties at the same time we only apply the highest which is one game loss.
Each player receives one game loss which doesn't affect the match score, they continue playing.
Is this correct?
I had a genuine situation in which, during a deck-check:
Player A was recieving a game loss for TE-DP.
Player B was recieving a game loss for both a seperate TE-DP and TE-DLP.
What is the correct way to apply this to a match score?
I believe that because player B is receiving two penalties at the same time we only apply the highest which is one game loss.
Each player receives one game loss which doesn't affect the match score, they continue playing.
Is this correct?
Jan. 18, 2019 08:55:03 AM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Harry, I’d consider that an example of two infractions from the same root cause; in this example, I’d only assess one GL for B. Adding the GL for A, they’d offset, and the players continue as though no Game Losses were applied.
d:^D
d:^D
Jan. 18, 2019 11:25:17 AM
- Hary
- Judge (Level 2 (UK Magic Officials)), Scorekeeper
- United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
In the scenario described, player B was receiving a GL for having extra cards in their deckbox (DP) AND not registering a sideboard card (DLP).
Is the root cause here being deck checked or are these two seperate issues?
Is it still only one game loss?
Is the root cause here being deck checked or are these two seperate issues?
Is it still only one game loss?
Jan. 25, 2019 07:59:11 PM
- Clint Lee
- Judge (Uncertified), Scorekeeper
- United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Hi Scott
With the new IDAW and Bribery changes, it will be more likely that we may have to assess double match losses, from what I gather WER does not allow this. Are there any guidelines with regards to handling such a situation?
With the new IDAW and Bribery changes, it will be more likely that we may have to assess double match losses, from what I gather WER does not allow this. Are there any guidelines with regards to handling such a situation?
Jan. 25, 2019 08:31:30 PM
- Francesco Scialpi
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- Italy and Malta
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Originally posted by Clint Lee:
Hi Scott
With the new IDAW and Bribery changes, it will be more likely that we may have to assess double match losses, from what I gather WER does not allow this. Are there any guidelines with regards to handling such a situation?
- Click on Edit Matches
- Select match
- Click on Un-Match
- Select both players in the right panel
- Click on Grant Loss
- Click on Done
Edit: please don't do this to award double Match Losses; see ‘O’fficial answer for details.
Edited Scott Marshall (Jan. 27, 2019 11:38:31 AM)
Jan. 25, 2019 08:34:15 PM
- Francesco Scialpi
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- Italy and Malta
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Deleted by author.
Edited Francesco Scialpi (Jan. 25, 2019 08:35:04 PM)
Jan. 25, 2019 08:57:45 PM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Originally posted by Clint Lee:Not yet, but it is under discussion. Until and unless we get more info, we can use Francesco's handy guide to give each player a loss.
Are there any guidelines with regards to handling such a situation?
d:^D
Jan. 25, 2019 09:20:54 PM
- Hary
- Judge (Level 2 (UK Magic Officials)), Scorekeeper
- United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa
Looking for an official answer on simultaneous game losses, and when they offset
Originally posted by Francesco Scialpi:Originally posted by Clint Lee:
Hi Scott
With the new IDAW and Bribery changes, it will be more likely that we may have to assess double match losses, from what I gather WER does not allow this. Are there any guidelines with regards to handling such a situation?
- Click on Edit Matches
- Select match
- Click on Un-Match
- Select both players in the right panel
- Click on Grant Loss
- Click on Done
Edit: removed image.
I don't think this is the appropriate solution.
Giving both players match losses on WER through penalties gives them each a 0-2-0 score for the round which seems less disruptive than unpairing them which would have an unwanted impact on tiebreakers.
I also didn't get a response on my triple GL scenario and have had conflicting answers from other sources.
Edited Scott Marshall (Jan. 27, 2019 11:37:37 AM)
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