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Competitive REL » Post: Undoing a Zone Change

Undoing a Zone Change

May 1, 2019 02:53:14 PM [Original Post]

Beau
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Midatlantic

Undoing a Zone Change

So back when Missed Triggers updated in January I asked a few questions about the update, and received for one of them an answer that was somewhat vague. That post is here: apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/48046

I wanted to clarify just to be sure I'm understanding this correctly, and to ensure that it is being handled correctly by other judges, since it has extremely high impact in Legacy. If Adam Sneak Attack's a Griselbrand onto the battlefield, subsequently forgets to sacrifice it at end of turn, and several turns pass before this is noticed. Does the missed “Sacrifice at end of turn” trigger qualify for the “undoes a zone change” Additional Remedy? Or is this simply a missed delayed trigger - Warning, because it's Generally Detrimental, but no further fix?

The meaning of “undo” isn't precisely defined, and every example that Toby provided when writing about this change was either (1) moving the cards back to the exact same zone they came from, or (2) destroying tokens. And the quote provided by Scott from Toby's blog, last time I asked this question, noted that the new solution was more “narrow” than previously, but that it “hits the cards that you’d think would be intuitively in this bucket”.

So, does “undo” cover cases of (1) object enters a zone, then (2) leaves that zone, (3) because of a delayed trigger generated alongside the action in (1)? Do we apply this Additional Remedy to The Scorpion God? What about Cauldron Dance?

Edited Beau (May 1, 2019 02:56:00 PM)

May 3, 2019 12:20:13 PM [Marked as Accepted Answer]

Andrew Keeler
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - South Central

Undoing a Zone Change

I would rule that Sneak Attack and Cauldron Dance both fall under the additional remedy. Scorpion God doesn't qualify because the additional remedy only applies to delayed triggers that are created by the same effect as the one causing the zone change. This reasoning is consistent with including token creation in with “changes zones” remedy; it isn't clear what zone a token would be entering the battlefield from, but it certainly wouldn't be from the graveyard in the case of “sacrifice this EoT.”

Basically, my reading of policy here is: “If an effect both (a) causes an object to change zones and (b) also creates a delayed trigger that will later enact an additional zone change on that same object, then that delayed trigger doesn't expire.”

Edit: You may not have seen it since it only went up about a week ago, but Toby posted a reply to your comment on the original blog post here, comment 27 that confirms this interpretation.

Edited Andrew Keeler (May 3, 2019 12:34:29 PM)

May 9, 2019 05:33:50 PM

Beau
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Midatlantic

Undoing a Zone Change

I did not catch that he'd replied! In fact I entirely forgot that I posted that question to his article. Thanks for spotting it! And yeah, that all makes sense, and follows what I figured would be the reasonable logic here. Glad to get a confirmation though.

May 10, 2019 01:29:06 PM

Scott Marshall
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame

USA - Southwest

Undoing a Zone Change

For reference, the reply that Matt and Andrew are referring to comes from Toby's blog post, about those trigger changes; here's the text:
Matt W says:
January 25, 2019 at 3:00 am

What exactly is the limit of “undo” for delayed zone change triggers, here? Do cards have to return to the same zone they started in?

Since tokens don’t have a starting zone before being created and go to either the graveyard or exile, depending on the card, it seems like “undo” is “put onto the battlefield, then later, leave the battlefield”. Does that extend to cards as well? If I forget to sacrifice a Sneak Attack’d creature, does that trigger fall under the delayed zone change exception?

telliott says:
April 28, 2019 at 6:04 pm

No, they can go to a different zone.

d:^D

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