This is an offshoot question I had because of the Knowledge Pool scenario “Guard Your Words.” I didn't want to bring it up there, because it's a slightly different situation.

Annie and Nami are playing in a Comp. REL Legacy event. Annie attacks tarmogoyf into Nami's empty board. Nami, who is at 5 life, is playing a deck heavy in removal. She asks, “What is tarmogoyf's power at?“ Annie replies “I have an enchantment and a land in my graveyard.” Nami checks her own graveyard and only has instants and sorceries. She says to Annie, ”So tarmogoyf is a 4/5 right now? No blocks. I'll go to one.“ “Nope! I win! The enchantment is Bitterblossom!” Annie giggles. Nami calls for a judge.

Some of the people answering seemed to be saying that in the KP scenario Annie was completely allowed to answer the way she did, but had Nami asked specifically about Goyf's P/T, the answer would have been misrepresenting derived information.

To my knowledge, as long as Annie doesn't actually lie (I.E. say ”Tarmogoyf is a 4/5 currently.“), she's allowed to answer that question however she wants, as long as the statement is true (”I played a land this turn."). It's up to Nami to physically count the card types in both graveyards to derive Tarmogoyf's P/T.

Knowledge Pool for reference: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/4977/

Annie's answer seems totally legal by the book to me. By providing true but incomplete information, she makes the opponent make a bad play, not an illegal play.

Originally posted by matthew jarrell:

To my knowledge, as long as Annie doesn't actually lie (I.E. say ”Tarmogoyf is a 4/5 currently.“), she's allowed to answer that question however she wants, as long as the statement is true (”I played a land this turn."). It's up to Nami to physically count the card types in both graveyards to derive Tarmogoyf's P/T.

Correct.

This is, in part, an illustration of why players need to ask the questions
they actually want answered. The correct answer to “What is Tarmogoyf's
power right now?” is either “5” or “Tournament Rules say you need to figure
that out on your own.”

However, there is another thing to keep in mind here. At least in my
experience, players actually do choose to communicate as desired about
Derived Information the overwhelming majority of the time, and they very
rarely refuse to help each other figure it out, even in very competitive
settings.

I think it is a tendency among judges first becoming aware of the
incomplete Derived Information “loophole” to worry too much about what word
games it's possible to play with it. In practice, Magic players very rarely
choose to play that game instead of Magic, so it just doesn't cause the
problems it theoretically could.

Does this situation change if it is instead Nami who has the Bitterblossom in her graveyard and Annie who misses the fact that it is Tribal?

Let's say that when Annie swings in, she says something like “Swing for 4?” Nami knows Goyf's power is actually 5, but is she required to tell Annie?

And at this point, Annie would be (unknowingly) misrepresenting derived information. What kind of penalty, if any, would Annie be facing should it come up?

I've personally been in this scenario as Nami (though with different cards in the graveyard), which is why I'm so interested.

You can not knowingly allow the player to assign less damage than they should. This would be cheating. Note that the damage can not be misrepresented, but the power is derived information.

Sounds like Annie does have a CPV here.



Nami would be required to record the damage correctly when it happens. Nami can leave Annie in the dark up until that point.



From: matthew jarrell
Sent: July-16-13 5:18 PM
To: thatoldguy81@gmail.com
Subject: Re: A Question on Derived Information (Competitive REL)



Does this situation change if it is instead Nami who has the Bitterblossom in her graveyard and Annie who misses the fact that it is Tribal?

Let's say that when Annie swings in, she says something like “Swing for 4?” Nami knows Goyf's power is actually 5, but is she required to tell Annie?

And at this point, Annie would be (unknowingly) misrepresenting derived information. What kind of penalty, if any, would Annie be facing should it come up?

I've personally been in this scenario as Nami (though with different cards in the graveyard), which is why I'm so interested.

——————————————————————————–
If you want to respond to this thread, simply reply to this e-email. Or view and respond to this message on the web at http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/post/28468/

Disable all notifications for this topic: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/5059/
Receive on-site notifications only for this topic: http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/noemail/5059/

You can change your email notification settings at http://apps.magicjudges.org/profiles/edit