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Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
July 12, 2019 04:46:47 AM [Original Post]
- Olivier Jansen
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- USA - Northeast
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Missed trigger upgrade wording: “Upgrade: If the triggered ability is usually considered detrimental for the controlling player and they own the card responsible for the existence of the trigger, the penalty is a Warning.”
Missed triggers guide Core 2020: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/2019/07/08/core-2020-missed-triggers-guide/
Relevant text:
Situation: I cast and own a Chandra, Awakened Inferno. My opponent casts Mass Manipulation, then +2's Chandra. I get an emblem. I own the card that's the source of the problem, but my opponent controlled the card at the moment it created a trigger-causing emblem. If I miss the trigger, it looks like I should get a warning under the current rules.
However, this seems slightly wonky - I get a warning on an emblem if and only if my opponent mass manipulationed a Chandra to get me. So if I'm, for example, against Temur Elementals (Plays both big chandra and mass manipulation), I could have two chandra emblems, and if I miss them, I get a warning for one but not the other. Upgrading a penalty depending on a sorcery potentially cast many turns ago seems wonky policy-wise.
Can I get a confirmation that this is how it works? If my own Chandra is stolen, and I miss the emblem trigger, it's a warning, but normally it's not?
Missed triggers guide Core 2020: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/2019/07/08/core-2020-missed-triggers-guide/
Relevant text:
Chandra, Awakened Inferno
“+2: Each opponent gets an emblem with “At the beginning of your upkeep, this emblem deals 1 damage to you.”
First and foremost, we have our dear mythic Chandra. There are a few important points to remember when dealing with this card out in Competitive REL tournaments. To start, the emblem is both owned and controlled by the opponent who receives it (Comprehensive Rules 113.2), so it is their trigger to remember. And as always, players are NOT allowed to intentionally forget their own triggers; doing so is considered Cheating. This trigger is generally detrimental though, meaning judges should step in and fix the game state as soon as they notice it’s been missed.
Despite all of that, this trigger should never result in a Warning; we only apply the upgrade path if a player “own(s) the card responsible for the existence of the trigger”. And while NAP owns the emblem, Chandra is the actual card that’s responsible here. So to recap: judges should remind players of this trigger, and try to fix it if it’s been less than a turn cycle since it was missed. But there’s no penalty here unless its controller is Cheating, by deliberately missing it. There is a lot to remember here, but with these points you should be able to properly analyze and fix Chandra scenarios.
Situation: I cast and own a Chandra, Awakened Inferno. My opponent casts Mass Manipulation, then +2's Chandra. I get an emblem. I own the card that's the source of the problem, but my opponent controlled the card at the moment it created a trigger-causing emblem. If I miss the trigger, it looks like I should get a warning under the current rules.
However, this seems slightly wonky - I get a warning on an emblem if and only if my opponent mass manipulationed a Chandra to get me. So if I'm, for example, against Temur Elementals (Plays both big chandra and mass manipulation), I could have two chandra emblems, and if I miss them, I get a warning for one but not the other. Upgrading a penalty depending on a sorcery potentially cast many turns ago seems wonky policy-wise.
Can I get a confirmation that this is how it works? If my own Chandra is stolen, and I miss the emblem trigger, it's a warning, but normally it's not?
Edited Olivier Jansen (July 12, 2019 04:47:51 AM)
July 12, 2019 05:05:33 AM [Marked as Accepted Answer]
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
You're right, Olivier, this is wonky - certainly a plausible scenario, considering both Chandra, Awakened Inferno and Mass Manipulation are seeing play. But that doesn't change the fact that this is, indeed, quite “wonky” (a non-technical variant of “corner case”).
The philosophy that guides us here, in this particular corner, is that your opponent created the situation (you having an emblem) that requires you to remember your own trigger; it's to their benefit to remind you of that trigger, and I think we can all agree that most opponents will do so - after all, that's the point of that particular line of play. But if you both honestly forget, then let's follow the same philosophy, and not issue a Warning.
d:^D
The philosophy that guides us here, in this particular corner, is that your opponent created the situation (you having an emblem) that requires you to remember your own trigger; it's to their benefit to remind you of that trigger, and I think we can all agree that most opponents will do so - after all, that's the point of that particular line of play. But if you both honestly forget, then let's follow the same philosophy, and not issue a Warning.
d:^D
July 12, 2019 07:22:40 AM
- Olivier Jansen
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- USA - Northeast
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Originally posted by Scott Marshall:
You're right, Olivier, this is wonky - certainly a plausible scenario, considering both Chandra, Awakened Inferno and Mass Manipulation are seeing play. But that doesn't change the fact that this is, indeed, quite “wonky” (a non-technical variant of “corner case”).
The philosophy that guides us here, in this particular corner, is that your opponent created the situation (you having an emblem) that requires you to remember your own trigger; it's to their benefit to remind you of that trigger, and I think we can all agree that most opponents will do so - after all, that's the point of that particular line of play. But if you both honestly forget, then let's follow the same philosophy, and not issue a Warning.
d:^D
Got it. So it’s not just Chandra that’s the original source, but also the mass manipulation
July 16, 2019 05:48:18 PM
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Level 1 (Judge Foundry))
- Barriere, British Columbia, Canada
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
“This trigger is generally detrimental though, meaning judges should step in and fix the game state as soon as they notice it’s been missed.”
This isn't relevant to the original question, but since it was brought up I want to mention that this line is incorrect. The IPG tells us to only step in if we intend to issue a Warning- whether the trigger is detrimental or not is irrelevant. Since we wouldn't be giving a Warning here, we should not step in if we see the trigger missed unless we believe it may have been intentional.
July 17, 2019 03:21:19 AM
- Beau
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- USA - Midatlantic
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Originally posted by Isaac King:“This trigger is generally detrimental though, meaning judges should step in and fix the game state as soon as they notice it’s been missed.”
This isn't relevant to the original question, but since it was brought up I want to mention that this line is incorrect. The IPG tells us to only step in if we intend to issue a Warning- whether the trigger is detrimental or not is irrelevant. Since we wouldn't be giving a Warning here, we should not step in if we see the trigger missed unless we believe it may have been intentional.
The snippet from the Missed Triggers Guide quoted above is the based on our project's current understanding of policy, as couched by Scott's response here. The exact wording of Missed Triggers, as you pointed out, does leave triggers that are generally detrimental but don't upgrade in a peculiar situation. Our articles assume that the need for judges to determine intent when a player misses a generally detrimental trigger outweighs all other considerations.
Should this stance change, our project will communicate that change and will update past and present articles accordingly.
Edited Beau (July 17, 2019 03:22:36 AM)
July 17, 2019 04:11:41 AM
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Level 1 (Judge Foundry))
- Barriere, British Columbia, Canada
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Originally posted by Matt Wall:
as couched by Scott's response here
The post you link to clearly says that it is not an official answer, just Scott's opinion. I have spoken to Toby about this and his response has been that we should not step in, exactly as the IPG says. I'm sure Scott will clarify if necessary given that he's commented earlier in the thread.
July 19, 2019 10:56:58 AM
- Beau
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))
- USA - Midatlantic
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Originally posted by Isaac King:Originally posted by Matt Wall:
as couched by Scott's response here
The post you link to clearly says that it is not an official answer, just Scott's opinion. I have spoken to Toby about this and his response has been that we should not step in, exactly as the IPG says. I'm sure Scott will clarify if necessary given that he's commented earlier in the thread.
Scott, could you please clarify the official position on judges intervening (or not) in situations where a trigger is generally detrimental, but does not upgrade?
Unless, Isaac, you can provide something quotable from Toby - blog comment, email, etc - in order for us to update our stance on this issue.
July 19, 2019 03:10:34 PM
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Level 1 (Judge Foundry))
- Barriere, British Columbia, Canada
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Originally posted by Matt Wall:
Unless, Isaac, you can provide something quotable from Toby - blog comment, email, etc - in order for us to update our stance on this issue.
Better to just wait on an Official answer here I think.
July 20, 2019 03:51:19 AM
- Scott Marshall
- Forum Moderator
- Judge (Level 4 (Judge Foundry)), Hall of Fame
- USA - Southwest
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Official: Isaac is correctly quoting Toby.
d:^D
d:^D
July 20, 2019 04:06:51 AM
- Francesco Scialpi
- Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))
- Italy and Malta
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
I am a bit confused, and kindly ask for further clarification.
The ‘O’ response is we don't intervene to fix a Missed Trigger unless:
- we intend to issue a Warning
- we have reason to investigate for Cheating
- players call for help.
Correct?
Now, suppose that AP resolves the +2 of Chandra, Awakened Inferno, and NAP forgets the emblem in their upkeep.
Missed Trigger Guide tells us we should intervene, fix the situation, and not issue a Warning.
Is the Missed Trigger incorrect?
Should we stay silent instead?
The ‘O’ response is we don't intervene to fix a Missed Trigger unless:
- we intend to issue a Warning
- we have reason to investigate for Cheating
- players call for help.
Correct?
Now, suppose that AP resolves the +2 of Chandra, Awakened Inferno, and NAP forgets the emblem in their upkeep.
Missed Trigger Guide tells us we should intervene, fix the situation, and not issue a Warning.
Is the Missed Trigger incorrect?
Should we stay silent instead?
July 20, 2019 06:40:09 AM
- Isaac King
-
- Judge (Level 1 (Judge Foundry))
- Barriere, British Columbia, Canada
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Francesco, your question is what this thread was about, and it was just answered by Scott in the previous post. My understanding is that we only step in if we intend to issue a Warning or believe the player might be Cheating. A player missing a Chandra emblem trigger could be Cheating, and if you believe that you need to step in in order to investigate then you should do so, but if you don't believe it to be all that suspicious you should leave the game alone. The same as you would handle a missed Dark Confidant trigger at a low life total.
July 20, 2019 06:51:41 AM
- Joseph Steet
- Judge (Level 5 (Judge Foundry))
- USA - Northeast
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
Of note, Toby said in the blog comments and via email that if you play Chandra 6, I steal it, plus it to give you an emblem, and you miss the trigger, that does upgrade to a Warning for you.
Philosophy (paraphrasing) being that you decided to introduce this Chandra to the game, so the triggers it makes are your doing/contribution to the game state.
Also FWIW I’m almost always intervening on missing Chandra triggers, IMO merits an investigation virtually every time.
Philosophy (paraphrasing) being that you decided to introduce this Chandra to the game, so the triggers it makes are your doing/contribution to the game state.
Also FWIW I’m almost always intervening on missing Chandra triggers, IMO merits an investigation virtually every time.
July 20, 2019 03:18:44 PM
- Perry Kraker
- Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))
- USA - Midatlantic
Chandra, Awakened Inferno + Mass Manipulation missed trigger question
What a fiery card Chandra, Awakened Inferno!
The Missed Trigger Project's article for M20 has been updated to better reflect our meaning and avoid further confusion in the language chosen. I apologize about that, and will ensure we have better precision of language going forward.
We appreciate all the feedback on our article! We have written them about several of the latest sets, to include Modern Horizons.
For those who haven't seen our article on M20, you can find it here
The Missed Trigger Project's article for M20 has been updated to better reflect our meaning and avoid further confusion in the language chosen. I apologize about that, and will ensure we have better precision of language going forward.
We appreciate all the feedback on our article! We have written them about several of the latest sets, to include Modern Horizons.
For those who haven't seen our article on M20, you can find it here
Edited Perry Kraker (July 20, 2019 03:25:33 PM)
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