Having a token card in the deckbox that isn't made by cards in your deck can never be a warning for many reasons and is not similar to the scenario at hand.

If an opponent falls for that trick, that's the same as writing a fake archetype on your deckbox, or sitting down and bluffing you're playing reanimator. There is no issue here.

Daniel crabtree wrote: I think it is pretty cool that Scott still takes time to chime in here. Legend!

Awww - thanks! 

 

Arjen de Jon wrote: Having a token card in the deckbox that isn't made by cards in your deck can never be a warning 

Agree completely - after reading the OP, I considered assembling a stack of "fake" tokens to set out at the start of any cEDH game.  That is, of course, if I ever played a cEDH game...  :)

 

d:^D

an aftertought:

If we consider the artist proof Forest a part of the sideboard (which I would do, since it is sleeved like the deck), doesn't the sideboard probably contain at that moment 16 cards (presuming the player used all his 15 sideboard slots for regular cards)? So he should get a Game Loss for the sideboard containing more cards than registered (or if after sideboarding, the sideboard containing more cards than the format maximum if he sideboarded 1 for 1).

Upgrade

=======

In games before sideboarding, while the deck is presented to the opponent for pre-game shuffling or during a deckcheck, if the deck contains fewer cards than registered (and any missing cards are not in the opponent’s deck) or the sideboard contains more cards than registered, the penalty is a Game Loss.

In games after sideboarding, while the deck is presented to the opponent for pre-game shuffling or during a deckcheck, if the deck contains fewer cards than the format minimum (and any missing cards are not in the opponent’s deck) or the sideboard contains more cards than the format maximum, the penalty is a Game Loss.

If we consider the artist proof Forest a part of the sideboard (which I would do, since it is sleeved like the deck)

I disagree with calling an artist proof card a part of the sideboard, as it is not a card. MTR 3.3 says, in part: "Authorized Game Cards must be regulation-sized, genuine Magic cards publicly released by Wizards of the Coast." Artist proof cards are neither "genuine magic cards" nor "publicly released," so they are not cards. Having an artist proof forest in the deckbox should either be a DQ (if we believe the player was actually up to no good) or no penalty.

I think the real question is what makes a card a card? And can the definition change if a card-esque thing is played, registered as a Sideboardpiece or stored with the 75 in same sleeves and could reasonably be played? 
Okay the real question is when do we penalize people for using counterfeits in an event?
If you tell me there is a problem with the object - especially if the player knew - then why is it suddenly not a problem if the thing could be assumed to be played in the main deck until it's revealed what it actually is, because the information about the actual deck is hidden until a certain moment. And where do we draw the line what is reasonably playable and what not? 
Let's assume its legacy and they have a Counterspell in their Oops all spells Deckbox. They play multiple Lotus Petals. Not very reasonable but playable. 
What about Glimmerpost? Isn't that a card that is always playable and good against aggressive strategies? 
I know I'm pushing it a bit, but I hope you get the point. I believe allowing players to use counterfeits as a tool to mislead their opponents feels straight out wrong to me for these reasons. 

Also I agree with the point regarding this also being a TO issue.

I think the real question is what makes a card a card? And can the definition change if a card-esque thing is played, registered as a Sideboardpiece or stored with the 75 in same sleeves and could reasonably be played? 
Okay the real question is when do we penalize people for using counterfeits in an event?
If you tell me there is a problem with the object - especially if the player knew - then why is it suddenly not a problem if the thing could be assumed to be played in the main deck until it's revealed what it actually is, because the information about the actual deck is hidden until a certain moment. And where do we draw the line what is reasonably playable and what not? 
Let's assume its legacy and they have a Counterspell in their Oops all spells Deckbox. They play multiple Lotus Petals. Not very reasonable but playable. 
What about Glimmerpost? Isn't that a card that is always playable and good against aggressive strategies? 
I know I'm pushing it a bit, but I hope you get the point. I believe allowing players to use counterfeits as a tool to mislead their opponents feels straight out wrong to me for these reasons. 

Also I agree with the point regarding this also being a TO issue.

Originally posted by Brook Gardner-Durbin:

If we consider the artist proof Forest a part of the sideboard (which I would do, since it is sleeved like the deck)

I disagree with calling an artist proof card a part of the sideboard, as it is not a card. MTR 3.3 says, in part: "Authorized Game Cards must be regulation-sized, genuine Magic cards publicly released by Wizards of the Coast." Artist proof cards are neither "genuine magic cards" nor "publicly released," so they are not cards. Having an artist proof forest in the deckbox should either be a DQ (if we believe the player was actually up to no good) or no penalty.

DQ (for cheating I presume) requires the breaking of a rule to begin with, thus I believe this take isn't supported by the IPG.

If your argument is that if this is done in good faith, there should be no penalty because no rule was broken - then if done in bad faith this cannot be cheating, because no rule has been broken.
I don't think we can have our cake ("this isn't a card, therefor it's fine (if not done maliciously)") and eat it too ("if done maliciously, this is cheating"), unless I'm misunderstanding your argument.

I can see the argument that this is not a problem and thus fair game as not sporting isn't unsporting (rules-wise, TO-wise this might be different as Charlotte pointed out);
But the only logical conclusion to that argument is that it's never a problem....

unless the player actually puts it into his deck and presents 59 cards+artist proof forest. Logically following the argument, it shouldn't even be a problem if the player presents 60 cards+artist proof forest shuffled into their deck, because we seem to want to treat it like a token or similar, as long as they call us if something goes wrong (i.e. if they draw it because they know they did not draw a card).
That feels very wrong, but also seems like the logical consequence of saying "that's not a card as defined by the MTR thus no problem"

DQ (for cheating I presume) requires the breaking of a rule to begin with, thus I believe this take isn't supported by the IPG.

If your argument is that if this is done in good faith, there should be no penalty because no rule was broken - then if done in bad faith this cannot be cheating, because no rule has been broken.
I don't think we can have our cake ("this isn't a card, therefor it's fine (if not done maliciously)") and eat it too ("if done maliciously, this is cheating"), unless I'm misunderstanding your argument.

I can see the argument that this is not a problem and thus fair game as not sporting isn't unsporting (rules-wise, TO-wise this might be different as Charlotte pointed out);
But the only logical conclusion to that argument is that it's never a problem....

unless the player actually puts it into his deck and presents 59 cards+artist proof forest. Logically following the argument, it shouldn't even be a problem if the player presents 60 cards+artist proof forest shuffled into their deck, because we seem to want to treat it like a token or similar, as long as they call us if something goes wrong (i.e. if they draw it because they know they did not draw a card).
That feels very wrong, but also seems like the logical consequence of saying "that's not a card as defined by the MTR thus no problem"

 

You can very much have it just be binary.  Its either no problem at all or its cheating.  It can be cheating if they are "intentionally trying to slip this not legal object into play via slipping it in the deck when it matters" or fishing it out of a Karn board.  They are very much breaking a rule there of playing non legal cards and doing so intentionally.  It would be exaclty the same as intentionally playing a counterfeit.  Thats not a real card either but intentionally trying to pass it off one is very much cheating.

This is differentiable from accidentally shuffling it into the deck, where the player would presumably call attention to it when they found out.  They could very much intentionally slip it in during one of the matches with the intent of "If I get deck checked they cant penalize me because its not a real card".  However if I deck check you and that is the 60th card in the deck, its not on your decklist, and you know that policy off rip....the likelyhood you can talk yourself out of a disqualification there is slim.

Should policy change here?  Maybe.  I don't think its likely to unless it becomes widespread as the risk/reward curve is just not great in terms of EV for a player to actually cheat here. 

Edited Matt Muckle (Nov. 17, 2025 02:05:53 PM)

So if you get DQd if the 60th card is a counterfeit to mislead your opponent, what if the 61st card is the counterfeit instead? The other 60 match the decklist and the explanation is the same (they could have lost their 60th card last round), that thing that shouldn't be in the deck is your misleading tool that accidentally made its way into the deck is it then also a DQ if you otherwise presented a legal 60 card deck? If the answer changes I'm very interested in the reasoning.

Originally posted by Tristan Hof:

So if you get DQd if the 60th card is a counterfeit to mislead your opponent, what if the 61st card is the counterfeit instead? The other 60 match the decklist and the explanation is the same (they could have lost their 60th card last round), that thing that shouldn't be in the deck is your misleading tool that accidentally made its way into the deck is it then also a DQ if you otherwise presented a legal 60 card deck? If the answer changes I'm very interested in the reasoning.

1.  I think were starting to walk into "Call me when it happens land." (as much as I hate that phrase).
2.  So you're suggesting that a player is actively making their deck worse by playing 61 cards to sneak in a single silver bullet as a 16th sideboard card that that they just happen to have the [extremely rare] artist proof of that is good in this matchup just to try and dodge it being caught and called out as a game loss in a deck check?
3.  This is where investigation skills come in.  If I deckcheck you and I find an extra object thats not on the decklist and is now in your deck Im following up with questions regardless of it being a real card, artist proof or counterfeit.  If I belive you that it was an accident...then yes no penalty go about your day and be more careful.  If I don't...your day got a lot worse and were in DQ territory.  The better that 61st card is in the matchup the more extordinary evidice you would need to provide to make me believe you.  It being the 60th card is just the limit of "I probably dont belive this is an accident."
   
   Note: If I believe you and no penalty I'm also likely socializing that weird thing that just happened with every judge within earshot so they are aware incase the player does something similar.

Soooo back to the question that matters to me:

"Where do we draw the line?"

Why is it acceptable to allow players to store counterfeits of any kind with their real deck? Why does that thing have to appear during deck checks in the mainboard or while playing to become a problem? Why can't we just make a clear cut and consider anything that looks like a magic card to be one until proven otherwise and if it's a deliberately used counterfeit to mislead their opponent regarding match ups to be punishable instead of accepting it? I personally do not believe that a relevant skill in playing magic and playing magic successfully to win is recognizing fakes by looking at the front of one through glossy sleeves. I also think that if we allow counterfeits to become a useful thing at official wizards events we open a whole different can I would rather not open. Also if players see using counterfeits is okay and they don't get punished by us maybe they will dare us more by plainly using counterfeits in other ways. Like if a card is to expensive just look for alternatives. I do not want to go down that route and I don't want to have the discussion about what counterfeit is legal and where is it legal with players because they like to intentionally misunderstand that and tell you later "but you allowed me to do this". 

Also why can't I understand 3.3 from the MTR (authorized cards) like that there is no space for Counterfeits at all in sanctioned events?

"Players may use any Authorized Magic Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets, supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards must be regulation-sized, genuine Magic cards publicly released by Wizards of the Coast. Cards that are not Authorized Game Cards are prohibited in all sanctioned events."

I want to understand 3.3 that there is never a space for non-authorized Game Cards in the play area. That protects us, it won't get messy and if players want to discuss this further you can just involve the TO if you haven't already.