Welcome to another exciting week of the Knowledge Pool! This week's topic is Silver, which means L0s and L1s should be given the first crack at it. L2s, please wait until Thursday to add your opinions.

Angie and Nelson are playing in a GPT. Angie casts Loxodon Smiter. In response, Nelson casts Essence Scatter, targeting the Smiter. When Essence Scatter Resolves, Angie puts the Smiter into her graveyard. She then attacks and Nelson blocks. During her second main phase, Angie casts another spell, then passes the turn. Nelson untaps and draws his card for the turn. At this point, Angie realizes that Loxodon Smiter can't be countered and calls for a judge.

What do you do?

First let's take a look at what's happened. Angie put a Smiter in the wrong zone, because she forgot about its “can't be countered” ability. As for penalties: GRV to Angie, FtMGS to Nelson. I wouldn't apply GRV-GRV for “situation where the effect that caused the infraction is controlled by one player, but the illegal action is taken by another player”, since Scatter wasn't the reason for the infraction. It was played and resolved properly, but A forgot about an ability of his card.

There are two options to fix this situation. If last combat want's overly complicated (i.e. not to many creatues involved and not many combat tricks/abilities used), we could ask HJ for permission to rewind (1 random card from N's hand to top of library, undo Angie's second spell and attack, put Smiter and Scatter to stack), issue penalties (Warning for both) and let players continue playing from resolving Essence Scatter (it was played legally, the error was putting Loxodon Smiter to the graveyard). Second option is to apply partial fix allowed by IPG, which is to put Smiter in the correct zone (he should have been put into play and it's within a turn from error), issue Warnings and let them play.

I'd go with option 2 (partial fix). I think that too many decisions have been made and too many information was revealed (combat, another spell played by A, card drawn by N to comfortably rewind entire situation.

Edited Piotr Łopaciuk (Oct. 30, 2013 09:00:54 AM)

Do we assume for this scenario that an investigation was already made and there was no cheating? (i.e. Nelson truly didn't know that Smiter is unconterable.)

Unless otherwise specified assume infractions are unintentional.

Sent from my iPhone

I agree with Piotr Łopaciuk on the infractions and penalties but I don't think the partial fix is applicable here.
Loxodon Smiter shouldn't have changed zones at the time it did (when Essence Scatter resolves, nothing happens, in particular no zone change of the Smiter). So the fix is not applicable as the Smiter does not go to the wrong zone at a time it should be changing zones but is put into a zone (the graveyard) instead of staying where it is (the stack).
But maybe this is too literal an interpretation of the partial fix.

Based on the resolution of the scenario about the “bestowaway,” I think we can apply the partial fix here. Ultimately, the same error was made; a creature spell was treated as countered when it should not have been, and was put into the graveyard when it should have been placed on the battlefield.

We've done an attack/block, a main phase, and an untap/draw step. Rewinding is probably not appropriate, but isn't impossibly complex. I agree with Piotr about the penalties and the partial fix.

I disagree that we can apply the partial fix. The scenario says that the Smiter was put into the graveyard when Essence Scatter resolved. It should still have been on the stack at that point, with both players receiving priority before the Smiter resolves. In the “real world” (i.e., not as precise as the manual priority passes on MTGO), things happen a lot more simply and fluidly:

A: “Loxodon Smiter?”
N: “Essence Scatter.”
A: *bins Smiter*

As opposed to a more technically detailed sequence:

A: “Cast Smiter, pass priority.”
N: “Essence Scatter, pass priority.”
A: “Pass priority, Smiter is countered, move Smiter from Stack to Graveyard, pass priority.”
or
A: “Smiter can't be countered and remains on the stack. Pass priority. Smiter resolves. Move Smiter from Stack to Battlefield.”

However, let's look at why Angie was binning the Smiter: because she thought it was countered. She moved it from the stack to her graveyard. Essence Scatter should have just done nothing–the Smiter should have remained on the stack. It's not like the classic Path to Exile example, where a card is supposed to go from the Battlefield to Exile, and goes from the Battlefield to Graveyard instead. Since the GRV occured when the Smiter wasn't supposed to be changing zones, I'd say the partial fix doesn't apply.

GRV to Angie, FTMGS to Nelson, and back up if it's not too complicated.

For me, this is a case of GPE - GRV for Angie and GPE - FtMGS for Nelson. Since we're within a turn of the error, the situation is too complicated to backup at the point right before the incorrect resolution of the spell, I'd apply the partial fix for “putting in the wrong zone”, and put the Smiter in the correct zone, which is the battlefield.

It would seem that Nelson did a GRV targeting the Smiter with the Essence Scatter, but this is a legal play, since the Smiter is a legal target for the spell. Simply, Essence Scatter wouldn't do anything, but that is a tactical error, not a rule error.

Edited Jack Hesse (Oct. 30, 2013 03:37:31 PM)

Agree on GRV/Angie-FtMGS/Nelson. I could argue GRV for Nelson instead of FtMGS, but I don't think it fits the spirit even if we can spin the facts enough to fit. Nelson legally cast the counterspell, but ultimateiy, it was the ability controlled by Angie caused that to need to be handled differently.

I also agree on the partial fix not applying. They let the smiter get countered when the smiter should have been left sitting on the stack. It wasn't moving zones at that time.

The difference from the bestowaway scenario from last week was that that was a spell resolving (or arguably failing)… Either way, the action was taken on resolution, when the card was going to be changing zones one way or another.

Edited Chris Nowak (Oct. 30, 2013 04:05:26 PM)

Except for minor details, this scenario is pretty much exactly the same as the “Bestowaway” scenario from last week, so the resolution should be the same: GRV for Angie, FtMGS for Nelson, and the partial fix that puts Smiter onto the battlefield (even though I still don't personally agree with the interpretation of what the partial fix should be used for). If it's not the same, I'm very interested in finding out exactly why.

To me it looks different to the bestoway scenario - in the bestowaway scenario, the object was meant to change zones but was moved into the wrong zone, whereas in this scenario, the object was not meant to change zones at all (but did). Because of this, it was not “an object changing zones… put into the wrong zone” and the partial fix cannot be applied.

GRV for Angie, FtMGS for Nelson, (probably) not backing up due to complexity, no partial fix that can be applied, play on.

Edited James Winward-Stuart (Oct. 31, 2013 10:24:02 AM)

In what way was the bestowaway object meant to change zones? A Bestow
having it's target made illegal doesn't get countered any more than a
Loxodon Smiter being Essence Scattered does. If it was “meant to change
zones” by resolving, then isn't that the same as the Smiter?

Originally posted by Justin Miyashiro:

In what way was the bestowaway object meant to change zones? A Bestow
having it's target made illegal doesn't get countered any more than a
Loxodon Smiter being Essence Scattered does. If it was “meant to change
zones” by resolving, then isn't that the same as the Smiter?

At the moment a Bestow has its target removed, nothing is meant to happen to it (it's still an aura etc. until it resolves) - and, in the previous scenario, nothing did happen to it at that moment. When it resolved, it was meant to change zones from the stack to the battlefield, but instead it moved from the stack to the graveyard - a “moved to the wrong zone” mistake.

At the moment Essence Scatter on the Loxodon Smiter resolves, nothing is meant to happen to the Smiter - it is meant to remain on the stack until its turn to resolve comes up, but in this scenario it was moved into the graveyard (when it should have stayed where it was).

“Interfering spell resolving” (bestow target destroyed/essence scatter resolves) and “Original spell resolves” (bestoway/smiter resolving) happen at different times - the Bestoway case and the Smiter case only look the same if you treat the interfering spell resolving and the original spell resolving as happening simultaneously.

Step-by-step:

Bestow scenario:
1. Hero's Downfall resolves, Bestoway target dies, Bestow spell stays where it is.
2. 2 Priority passes happen
3. Bestow spell resolves; is meant to be put onto the battlefield but is instead put into the graveyard.

Essence/Loxodon scenario:
1. Essence Scatter resolves. Loxodon Smiter is supposed to stay where it is, but is put into the graveyard.
2. (doesn't now happen, would have been 2 priority passes)
3. (doesn't now happen, would & should have been Smiter resolving)

Edited James Winward-Stuart (Oct. 31, 2013 01:56:22 PM)

Thanks, I was viewing the changing of zones at different points in the
resolution of the stack, I understand the difference in the scenarios now.

Based on the discussion here, I now believe that the partial fix would be
inappropriate based on the reasons already discussed. It does seem,
though, that the difference between this scenario and the Bestowaway
scenario is very subtle, likely intentionally so, and it may be confusing
to players, particularly if they've seen the Bestow situation happen and
how that scenario was resolved. It is critical that the judge in this
situation explain VERY clearly why the partial fix cannot be applied.