Hi,

the MIPG describes the appropriate penalty for missed triggers that are “usually considered detrimental”. Is there any “guideline” in determining whether a missed trigger is considered “usually detrimental” apart from common sense? I just wonder how other judges do this.

The MIPG also says that “the current game state is not a factor in determining this”. Does this imply that the strategy of the deck also is not a factor in determining this?

Kind regards,

Jasper

Edited Jasper König (Dec. 16, 2013 01:54:01 PM)

Common sense is usually good enough, as very few cards these days fit into the category. Cards which are sometimes detrimental and sometimes not are, by definition, not in the category of “Generally Detrimental”.

Yes, the deck's strategy is not important. While the deck may be built to take advantage of a detrimental trigger, we don't take that into account. Any potential “unfairness” gets covered when you apply the fix - if the appropriate fix is that you allow the opponent the option to put the trigger on the stack, then they will choose in their favour.

In a vacuum, would you consider the card to be better or worse without the ability? There aren't many that don't fall under this.

The common rule of thumb is “Am I playing this card BECAUSE of this trigger, or IN SPITE OF the trigger?” Take the classic Dark Confidant, for example. 2/1's for 2 aren't going to be played in Legacy or Modern, so it's pretty clear that Dark Confidant is played BECAUSE of its trigger, meaning its generally beneficial.

Whether or not a trigger is generally detrimental is determined without the context of the current game state, including the strategy of the deck the card is being used in.

I'd definitely suggest taking a look at this Missed Trigger Guide on the wiki:

http://wiki.magicjudges.org/en/w/Missed_Trigger_Guides

Edit: Oops, Lems was faster.

Abe Corson has been coordinating a project to highlight triggers in each set which are generally detrimental or not - the guides they have done so far are available here: http://wiki.magicjudges.org/en/w/Missed_Trigger_Guides. This should help to give you a better idea of what is considered generally detrimental.

Edited Kim Warren (Dec. 16, 2013 02:07:30 PM)

The only card that I find really hard to evaluate in this context is Blood-Toll Harpy; I really can't say if a 2/1 flying without the ability would be better or worse…

There is a great Missed Triggers Guide on Judge Wiki, where you can check whether the trigger in question is detrimental or not. It covers only current and Standard sets + previous Standard + Modern Masters an Commander 2013, but gives a general idea about what kind of abilities are considered detrimental. It's really helpful even when judging Modern/Legacy/Vintage tournaments.

Standard sets triggers:
http://wiki.magicjudges.org/en/w/Missed_Trigger_Guides

Standard detrimental triggers:
http://wiki.magicjudges.org/en/w/Detrimental_Triggered_Abilities_in_Standard

Cheers!

Edit - either you guys are fast, or I'm slow. When I started typing this message, there was only Mark's answer online.

Edited Piotr Łopaciuk (Dec. 16, 2013 02:18:39 PM)

I actually didn't know about the Missed Trigger Guides in the wiki, thanks a lot for that. That's what I was looking for. I guess these will help be being confident with my decisions.

Edited Jasper König (Dec. 16, 2013 02:22:56 PM)

Abe's Guide is actually amazing. Incredibly thorough.

Originally posted by Dustin De Leeuw:

The only card that I find really hard to evaluate in this context is Blood-Toll Harpy; I really can't say if a 2/1 flying without the ability would be better or worse…

A good rule of thumb is that if evaluating the ability is hard, it is not usually considered detrimental.
Note that the term is “usually considered detrimental”, not “always detrimental” or “considered detrimental by everybody”. If you can't get a clear judgement on the ability, I would have a hard time to call it “usually considered detrimental”, more like “usually hard to evaluate properly” ;).

You can also look at it within the context of other cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Scholar of Athreos and Pharika's Cure. Black both likes taking down the opponent's life and has surplus itself to spare. So the design's intent is to be usually beneficial.

Also, Flame Rift =p

EDIT: then again, Skullclamp's minus toughness was designed as a drawback…

Edited Toby Hazes (Dec. 17, 2013 12:41:22 PM)

I like this explanation:

Does this ability make the card-to-mana ratio better or worse?

Dustin:

Symmetrical is usually not detrimental, because both players are affected equally- you're not getting the low end of the deal.

Blood-Toll Harpy as a 3-man 2/1 flyer is worse than the standard 3-mana 2/2 Wind Drake and 2-mana Stormfront Pegasus.

Sure the trigger is bad when I'm at 1 and my opponent isn't, but so is Bob's trigger.

Edited Evan Cherry (Dec. 18, 2013 05:48:54 PM)

But white and blue are the main flying colors, they get it cheaper.
Black has a long history with this card:
Feral Shadow
Moaning Spirit
Dusk Imp
Kelinore Bat
Gloomhunter

Compared to that, you have a neutral trigger =p

…and that amount of analysis pretty much illustrates the earlier point (about being hard to evaluate)… :D

What do people think about Sulfuric Vortex's trigger. I saw a scenario somewhere last week (test???) that mentioned that the trigger is considered detrimental on your turn, but not detrimental on your opponent's turn.

I understand the logic here, but it feels weird to make the same trigger on the card be detrimental or not depending on who it's damaging, I would normally say the trigger was never detrimental, since it's one of the main attractions of the card.