Originally posted by Tim Hughes:

what is the ‘Path to Exile’ issue?

Just have a look at the IPG GPE:GRV in the last paragraph. It's an example for double GRV.

The Path to Exile scenario is:
Alex: Path your Ichorid, Nathan.
Nathan: Okay. (Puts Ichorid in his graveyard).
Alex: Cool. Attack with my team.

Both players have committed infractions, through explicit actions taken (Nathan putting creature in GY instead of exile) and Alex in allowing it then moving the game forward.

It's not a perfect reference for how to handle Tribute, but it's close enough for discussion.

I guess part of my question in bringing up the Path to Exile example is
this: is inaction the same as taking a wrong action?

-George FitzGerald
L2, Sarasota, FL

Originally posted by George FitzGerald:

is inaction the same as taking a wrong action?

No, although either can lead to the same conclusions.

But, as stated - i.e., without any surrounding context - we can neither equate nor differentiate.

Examples:

You attack with a 3/3, and I block with a 2/4; I know you have a Spear (or any +1/+1 effect), but apparently you forgot, and my INACTION of not burying my 2/4 is an infraction - and sure smells like Cheating.

You attack with a 3/3, I block with a 2/4, and bury my guy because I think you still have that +1/+1 effect. I took a wrong action, but it's a mistake (almost certainly, let's not explore those other corners). If you, through INACTION, allow that to happen when you know the +1/+1 is no longer in effect? Welp, we're back into Cheating territory there.

Now, this one might get a bit closer to what you're aiming at, George:
I control Scavenging Ooze, and remove a creature from your graveyard, but don't gain life. You take no action, but you know that I should have gained life. INACTION is bad, m'kay? (in this context).

And, similarly, if you cast a Tribute card, don't offer me a choice AND I KNOW BETTER, then I can't keep quiet about it. That would be Cheating. But if I don't even notice it, it's not my infraction, it's yours. I allowed the game state to get wonky, so FtMGS seems fine. (And, notice that in that case, we both took INACTION…)

Originally posted by Scott Marshall:

And, similarly, if you cast a Tribute card, don't offer me a choice AND I KNOW BETTER, then I can't keep quiet about it. That would be Cheating.

Thanks for clarifying that! All posts so far made me think this was in fact ok, when it seemed like Cheating to me. I'm glad it's not ok.

I try to make order and to clarify how to best handle the situation (Correct me if I'm wrong and / or omit something):

- AP Play a card with tribute and both players forgets about it (if they forgets on purpose is Cheating).

- Then they realize that they have forgotten the choice of a tribute then, the IPG tell us to correct the error by applying the PARTIAL fix to have NAP make the choice of whether or not put the counters on the creature.

- In any case, the TRIGGER that was supposed to trigger when the creature comes into play does NOT trigger because the creature is already in play for a while.

- We assign penalties: GRV to the AP because he has not shown the opponent to make the choice, FtMGS the NAP because it allowed the game to continue in an illegal state and did not indicate a choice at the right time.

The trigger does not trigger because the fix is in fact “partial” and applies only to the choice of NOT ACCOMPLISHED tribute.
After when the choice is made there is no trigger condition (“When the creatures enter the battlefield”) and therefore does not trigger.

Rick

Very close; let's not forget that language in the IPG that allows the Head Judge to back up, when appropriate. If the HJ backs up to the point of the error (Tribute choice), the creature spell is back on the stack and the Trigger can fire.

Out of curiosity, and since this is more applicable to the upcoming
Prerelease Events:

How exactly ought this be handled at Regular REL? Technically speaking,
the ETB trigger should still not happen for the same reasons (at Comp REL
it isn't a Missed Trigger, it's trigger condition just doesn't apply, which
is still true at Regular). Obviously GRV/FTMGS don't apply at Regular, but
is the overall resolution of the error the same? It seems to me like it
should be, but I wonder if maybe we should try a little harder to back up
in this case, particularly at Prerelease?

We're always trying to back up first, no matter the REL, if they didn't appropriately offer the tribute choice.

Our criteria for whether we can back up to the tribute at regular doesn't really differ significantly from competitive - if it's super disruptive to the game to back up all actions taken after when the tribute choice should have been made, then we just don't do it. So, as usual, use your best judgment.

Note that the JAR doesn't really afford the “make the choice now” option - in general, since Regular is about education, we try to fix things via rewinds so players can better understand what is supposed to happen.

If it does happen and you can't back up, just remind the players how tribute works, and that they both need to be more careful.

Edited Rebecca Lawrence (Jan. 31, 2014 01:01:36 PM)

I feel lost here as to why the trigger vanish.

When the missing Tribute effect is detected (GPE-GRV) we actually detect a missed trigger (GPE-MT).

Let's say we are within a turn from the infraction(s), the opponent should make his/her choice here (GRV fix), and be given the chance to put the trigger on the stack (MT fix). It's pretty obvious he would then choose “no tribute” and “not on the stack”, but we still have two infractions here and it seems I can't get the point in ignoring one of the two.

While the triggers coming with tribute creatures all have intervening if clauses, they read “if tribute wasn't paid”, not “if a choice has been made for tribute”, so the condition is met and the trigger should have triggered but has been missed.

Where is the flaw in my reasoning? :/

Originally posted by Andrea Mondani:

While the triggers coming with tribute creatures all have intervening if clauses, they read “if tribute wasn't paid”, not “if a choice has been made for tribute”, so the condition is met and the trigger should have triggered but has been missed.

Where is the flaw in my reasoning? :/

I think the flaw is that the “if tribute wasn't paid” is an ETB effect not a “When tribute is not paid”. “When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, if tribute wasn't paid, …”. If you missed the tribute, you missed the ETB trigger.

It won't trigger now since the creature is already on the battlefield. You have a missed trigger, the opponent can put it on the stack, but they should say no tribute, and no trigger.

The important lesson here, is to remember tribute when it is cast.