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Competitive REL » Post: Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

March 6, 2014 01:41:20 PM

Joshua Feingold
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

Welcome to Personal Tutor, where we discuss how to maximize our opportunities for player education. Our goal is to transcend the basic answer to create an informative answer that the player will really remember. You may even find this process helps you come to a better understanding of rules and policy yourself.

The Scenario:
You are a judging a Sealed format Grand Prix Trial. As you walk by a table, you notice Amulius and Numitor looking a bit confused. You stop and ask if you can help. "Oh! Yeah. Numitor has this Fabled Hero with Raised by Wolves. He already had this Nyxborn Wolf bestowed on this other guy. We were trying to figure out if it still counts as a wolf."


The Basic Answer:
“No. It's not a wolf.”

This month, we have another often poorly understood rules interaction. Remember, the goal of Personal Tutor is not giving the “right answer,” but being concise, comprehensible, and educational. So, what do you tell the players?

L1s and Judge Candidates, feel free to give your answers immediately. L2s, please wait a day to add your input. L3+, please wait two days.

March 6, 2014 01:47:31 PM

James Winward-Stuart
Judge (Level 2 (UK Magic Officials)), Tournament Organizer

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

“Bestow creatures are always Enchantments, and they're also either Creatures or Auras. When they're Auras, they aren't Creatures, so they can't have Creature types. So, this one isn't a wolf right now, but it'll be a wolf when it ‘falls off’.”

I thought it was important to include the “always Enchantments” line, or we're setting ourselves up for another point of confusion later as otherwise the player might mistakenly conflate Aura and Enchantment.

Possibly pointing out that it'll be a wolf when it falls off strays too much into coaching?

March 6, 2014 02:22:04 PM

Michael Shiver
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

“Each card type has a list of subtypes that go with it. Wolf is a Creature subtype and can only be on Creatures. While a ‘bestowed’ Enchantment is an Aura (a subtype of Enchantment!) it's not a Creature, so it doesn't have the Wolf subtype.”

The follow-up question of “so is it a Wolf when it turns back into a Creature?” is almost certainly going to come up, and all that will need is a “yes, that's right”.

March 6, 2014 03:22:25 PM

Marc DeArmond
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

USA - Pacific Northwest

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

"Nyxborn wolf isn't currently a wolf. Enchantment creatures are only enchantment auras and not creatures when they've been bestowed. However, they're always enchantments when they're a creature. I like to think of it as is infused with the spirit of the wolf. If he dies, the wolf leaps out of his fallen body ready to fight."

March 6, 2014 06:31:03 PM

Ernst Jan Plugge
Judge (Uncertified)

BeNeLux

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

I like pointing at things when I explain stuff like this.

*points at type line on Nyxborn Wolf* “Wolf and creature belong together. You can't be a wolf if you're not also a creature.”

*points at type line on a basic land* “Just like forest and land belong together. You can't be a forest if you're not also a land.”

*points back at NB* “So when Nyxborn Wolf was bestowed and stopped being a creature, it also stopped being a wolf. So it doesn't count as a wolf for effects like that.” *points at Raised by Wolves*

I wouldn't add that it becomes a wolf again if it falls off, because that comes dangerously close to giving strategic advice. Unless I get a follow-up question about that, of course.

And I wouldn't even mention tribal because that's irrelevant in the format.

March 6, 2014 11:13:35 PM

Byron Calver
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Western Provinces

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

“Nyxborn Wolf isn't a Wolf right now, because Wolf is a creature subtype, and subtypes can only exist when the permanent has the appropriate type. Right now, since Nyxborn Wolf is bestowed, it is an Aura and not a creature, and therefore it cannot have creature subtypes.”

That's my first instinct, but it's a little bland, and certainly not memorable.

As noted, the main hazard to avoid appears to be leading out too much about the possibility that the Wolf becomes a creature again in future.

I like Ernst's suggestion of using the subtype line on lands as a visual cue in the process, but I might like to lean toward something in the vein of Marc's explanation that jumps out a little more flavorfully. A second try:

“Well, despite its name the Nyxborn Wolf isn't particularly Wolfy right now, because it's gotten a little attached to this other creature as an Aura, and that's distracting it from whatever ‘creature’ stuff the Nyxborn Wolf might have hoped it'd get to do, like helping the Wolves Raise that Fabled Hero.”

This would probably go over well at a prerelease or FNM, but I can't help feeling like it's a little too ‘cute’ for the stated scenario of a GPT where players are likely expecting a more professional answer. One more attempt.

“At this point, the Nyxborn Wolf is not a Wolf, because it is not a creature while it's bestowed and the subtype Wolf is associated with being a creature.”

I think that's about as concise as I'm going to get, and it hits the important facts (Wolf is a subtype of creature, which Nyxborn Wolf is not). But it still seems to be missing something to make it really stick.

March 7, 2014 03:04:58 AM

Ernst Jan Plugge
Judge (Uncertified)

BeNeLux

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

I would want to avoid a very flavorful explanation in this case. Partly because this is Comp REL and it might come across as condescending, like I'm treating them as ignorant kids, and partly because when you're talking flavor, the card's name and flavor text become relevant. And in this case it says “wolf” right there in the card name. I would want to de-emphasize that the card name suggests the wrong answer.

March 7, 2014 12:55:14 PM

Benjamin Bandelow
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

“As Nyxborn Wolf is bestowed right now, it is an Enchantment - Aura. Enchantments, just as other permanents that aren't creatures, can't have creature types as long as they do not also have the ‘Tribal’ supertype, which Nyxborn Wolf does not have, or specifically state that they do on the card. Nyxborn Wolf doesn't do that either, so it's just an Enchantment - Aura right now. When it falls off, it will resume being an Enchantment Creature with the subtype Wolf again and would then count for Raised by Wolves.”

March 7, 2014 01:51:58 PM

Adam Zakreski
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Western Provinces

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

“While a bestow card is an aura, it does not have any creature sub-types.”

March 7, 2014 03:20:08 PM

Joaquín Ossandón
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

Hispanic America - South

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

I just want to point out that tribal is not a supertype, its a card type (that's why people play tarfire with tarmogoyf :D ). Supertypes are:

Basic
Legendary
Snow
World
Ongoing (appears in archenemy, no use in regular magic)

Elite (appears in a Theros Challenge deck) is kind of a supertype, but it's not supported by the CR and has no use in regular magic outside that variant.

March 9, 2014 10:32:35 AM

Benjamin Bandelow
Judge (Uncertified)

German-speaking countries

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

Originally posted by Joaquín Ossandón:

I just want to point out that tribal is not a supertype, its a card type (that's why people play tarfire with tarmogoyf :D ). (…)

You are, of course, entirely correct. My bad, got confused there for a second. Thanks though!

March 9, 2014 05:32:23 PM

Talia Parkinson
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Pacific Northwest

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

I very much like Ernst's explanation, with one exception: I think it's very possible the point of confusion on the players may be that they don't realize the Bestow creature doesn't count as a creature while it's an aura. Simply adding a line upfront that says the Nyxborn Wolf cannot be a creature while enchanting another creature would clear that up.

March 9, 2014 11:20:58 PM

Ernst Jan Plugge
Judge (Uncertified)

BeNeLux

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

I considered that, but I don't think the creature-ness of the card is the point of confusion. My experience is that whether or not a bestow card is a creature card/spell/permanent is only an issue until the card has entered the battlefield and ETB triggers have resolved. After that, players mostly don't think of the card as a creature card anymore. Exceptions exist of course, but that's been my experience.

It's certainly not a bad idea to mention that Nyxborn Wolf is not a creature early on, but I'd be very careful about how to do it. In situations like this I've found there is a real risk of keyword overload. No more than two, maybe three game terms in a sentence before holding for a beat and watching for cues from the players. Usually, players' body language (nodding, frowning, smiling, …) will indicate very quickly whether they're ready for me to move on to the next bit or they need a moment to absorb what I've just said. And if they're quick on the uptake and I can move faster, I find they'll usually start finishing my sentences for me.

March 14, 2014 07:31:51 AM

Michel Degenhardt
Judge (Uncertified)

BeNeLux

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

“wolf is a creature type. Generally, if a card isn't a creature, it doesn't have creature types. Nyxborn Wolf currently isn't a creature, as you can see from its reminder text, which says ”becomes a creature again“. Therefore, Nyxborn Wolf currently does not count as a wolf.”

The most difficult part of the explanation is likely that the Nyxborn Wolf currently isn't a creature, so I like to reinforce that point by pointing out information available on the card.

Bringing up tribal would likely only cause confusion. I'll mention it if they ask about my use of the word generally, but that's not likely to happen.

March 14, 2014 10:38:15 AM

Joshua Feingold
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Personal Tutor #6 - When is a wolf not a wolf?

This week, we had a question about the somewhat complicated relationship between types and sub-types created by Bestow. The main point I hoped you would convey (and many of you did) is that there is a special link between types and subtypes that doesn't exist between multiple types, multiple subtypes, or types and supertypes. That is,

“Wolf is a subtype of creature, just like aura is a subtype of enchantment. A permanent can't have a subtype if it doesn't have the right type to go with it. If Nyxborn Wolf somehow stopped being an enchantment, it would also stop being an aura. Likewise, for as long as Bestow stops Nyxborn Wolf from being a creature, it also stops it from being a wolf.”

One thing to consider in this explanation is that, as judges, we know what “subtypes” are, but players probably don't. It is important to prime the players with this information so that they have the context to understand the rest of your explanation. We also want to present the more general notion that subtypes have associated types. Then we want to make this information concrete by telling the players exactly how it applies here to Bestow.

Thanks to everyone for all the great responses, and a shoutout to Ernst Jan Plugge for his nicely detailed answer, including using a technique of pointing to other cards to help reinforce an explanation. Awesome stuff all around.

Personal Tutor will be back next month with another scenario to turn into an educational opportunity. If you'd like to suggest a discussion topic or become a member of the Personal Tutor team, please send me an email via the forum.