This thread is for discussing the article Modern Rules Problems - Split Cards by Nathan Long.

Hi,

I just not understand why in Dark Confidant the answer for “what the converted mana cost is” is 1 AND 4 but with the Disciple of Deceit is 1 OR 4

Tks


Em Terça-feira, 29 de Abril de 2014 2:09, Evan Cherry <forum-9777-6687@apps.magicjudges.org> escreveu:

This thread is for discussing the article Modern
Rules Problems - Split Cards by Nathan
Long.

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Originally posted by Waldomiro Campos:

I just not understand why in Dark Confidant the answer for “what the converted mana cost is” is 1 AND 4 but with the Disciple of Deceit is 1 OR 4

In each case, you get both answers: the CMC is 1 and 4. How to handle this in the case of the Dark Confidant is easy: you lose 1 and 4 life. (That is, you lose 5 life.)

But what does it mean to look for a card with CMC equal to “1 and 4”? For this, we look to CR 708.6a:

708.6a. Anything that performs a positive comparison (such as asking if a card is red) or a relative comparison (such as asking if a card's converted mana cost is 3 or less) involving one or more split cards in any zone other than the stack or involving one or more fused split spells gets only one answer. This answer is “yes” if either side of each split card in the comparison would return a “yes” answer if compared individually.

Here we are performing a positive comparison between the split card and the card that we find in our search. This comparison yields a “yes” result if it would yield a “yes” result compared to either half of the split card individually; that is, if the card we find has CMC 1 or CMC 4.

Edited Vincent Roscioli (April 29, 2014 01:57:52 PM)

Put a slightly different way for the Disciple of Deceit scenario: The card has a cost of 1 (it can find another card with a cost of 1) AND it has a cost of 4 (it can find another card with a cost of 4.)

I found a card with a cost 4! Can I find it with my card (cost 1 AND 4)? Yes.
I found a card with a cost 1! Can I find it with my card (cost 1 AND 4)? Yes.

The end result is that you can find a card 1 OR 4. But it's still because the answer returned for Disciple of Deceit is both 1 AND 4.

Edited David Carroll (April 29, 2014 03:01:41 PM)

That was a great article! Thanks for taking the time and energy to write, edit, proofread, and post it. I know I benefited from reading it.

That Meddling Mage ruling is new to me, and troublesome with fuse.

If Norin controls a Meddling Mage that named Far (of Far // Away), what are Anthousa's options when casting the card Far // Away from her hand? Clearly, she cannot cast Far and can cast Away, but can she cast a fused Far and Away?

It's mostly straightforward from the rules for Fuse, Matthew.

702.101b. A fused split spell has two sets of characteristics and one
converted mana cost. The converted mana cost of the spell is a number equal
to the total amount of mana in its two mana costs, regardless of color.

And from the rules for split cards:

708.2b. If a player casts a split card with fuse from his or her hand, in
addition to choosing either half as described above, the player may choose
to cast both halves, resulting in a fused split spell. Both halves are
evaluated to see if the spell can be cast. If either half can't be cast,
then both halves can't be cast as a single spell.

Basically, the “Far” component can't be cast, even as part of a Fuse, as
the spell has two sets of characteristics, one of which has the name “Far”.



—
Rob McKenzie
Magic Judge Level III
Minnesota

Note that this rule was changed with the release of Dragon's Maze. It used to be that you named the entire split card, and that prevented you from casting either half (so you would name “Fire//Ice” and that would stop you from casting “Fire” or “Ice”). Here's rules manager Matt Tabak talking about the change:

This rule covers effects that instruct a player to name a card. Previously, if you wanted to name a split card, you had to name both halves. So, for Meddling Mage's ability, you couldn't say just “Fire,” you had to say “Fire and Ice.” The casting of either half would be shut down. But the split card rules tell you that it has two sets of characteristics, one for each half. It follows that a split card has two names. When you named “Fire and Ice,” you were choosing a name that wasn't actually the name of a spell that could be cast.

This seemed off to me, so I looked for someone who could change that rule. I found such a person: me! Well, me backed up by the rest of the rules team and R&D, but details, right? Now, the names of each half of a split card show up on the list of legal names to choose from. When asked to name a card, you can name half of a split card, but not the whole card. But fused split spells have two names. So, going back to our Meddling Mage example, if you name “Far,” then Away could still be cast. Far clearly can't be cast, and you couldn't use fuse and cast Far and Away either. One of the fused split spell's names is Far, and spells with that name can't be cast.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/244f&page=3

Nathan Long
DCI Level 2 Judge