Please see http://apps.magicjudges.org/forum/topic/8620/ for an introduction to Is this the Right Rule?

Sorry for the delay in posting round 2. Real life has once again intervened…

This time I would like to discuss part of MTR 3.15, which says “Before each game begins, players must present their sideboard (if any) face down.”

I think the main reason for this rule is to prevent players having oversized sideboards or from selecting a sideboard from one of several prepared earlier. It's been around for a long time, but let's be honest. A tiny proportion of players do it. (I'll stick my hand up here, and in fact I once requested my opponent to do so and received a 13-card sideboard, before they were legal. He ended up with an infraction.)

Since it's a rule that almost nobody observes, is it the right rule? Do we still need it in a world of midround deckchecks and variable sideboard sizes? Is it one of those niceties like cutting your deck after your opponent shuffles it that's been there forever and nobody knows why? Or is it something that Magic tournaments should still have?

The purpose of this rule is not forcing players to present sideboards. It
is here so players have the opportunity to check their opponent's
sideboards and actually verify it's legality (at least the number of cards)
and ensure that their opponent won't use other cards as sideboard if they
suspect some potential shenenigans without being viewed as jerks.

Since sideboard contains cards which can affect the game, it makes sense
that opponents should be allowed to check their legality before begining
the match (the same thing as counting opponent's deck before match).

It is the same as with rule which says that players are obligated to
shuffle opponent's deck before match. Even though there are players who
don't do it (they usually only cut the deck) and are not penalized for
that, the rule is neede so the players have the option to do that without
looking as jerks.


2014-04-30 20:39 GMT+02:00 Thomas Ralph <

Originally posted by David Záleský:

The purpose of this rule is not forcing players to present sideboards. It
is here so players have the opportunity to check their opponent's
sideboards and actually verify it's legality (at least the number of cards)
and ensure that their opponent won't use other cards as sideboard if they
suspect some potential shenenigans without being viewed as jerks.

2014-04-30 20:39 GMT+02:00 Thomas Ralph <

If the purpose of the rule is to give players the right to count their opponent's sideboard, wouldn't a “may request” rather than a “must present” make more sense in this case. I'd hate to make a rule that said that a player “must look up Oracle text on foreign language cards” simply to allow them to do so.

The following line in the MTR essentially grants permission to a player to count an opponent's sideboard. If this is present, telling them they are required to present it redundant:

Opponents may count the number of cards in their opponent’s sideboard at any time. Players are not required to reveal how many cards they have swapped from their main deck to their sideboard.

The main difference between those formulations is the responsibility shift.

In the current wording, it is player's responsibility to present his
sideboard and if an opponent ask him to present it, he simply reminds him
of his responsibility.

But after your change, one player's responsibility changes into another
player's right. And there is a big difference between reminding someone of
something he is required to do, and forcing him to do something just
because you want to (even though you are allowed to do that).

Technically, your version will not reduce player's ability to verify
legality of his opponent's sideboard, but it might increase the social
pressure on players who want to do that, which is not what we want.

Also consider this: If you really made that change (removing the
requirement to present sideboard), what message would it sent? In my
opinion, it would make players believe that their sideboards are not their
oponent's bussiness and that would even more increase the social pressure
on the players who want to check their opponents' sideboards.


2014-04-30 21:10 GMT+02:00 Marc DeArmond <

Originally posted by Thomas Ralph:

A tiny proportion of players do it…
Since it's a rule that almost nobody observes…

It depends where you play, though. In some places it's universally observed. Japan is the obvious example; even at FNM at my old LGS in Tokyo, everyone always presented their sideboard before each game.

Technically, the Japanese are doing it correctly and the rest of us are wrong. I've never seen anybody present their sideboard in the UK. I'm not sure that forcing people to do so would be helpful though.

Question: what does it mean to present your sideboard do you have to make an effort to hold out your sideboard and say “this is my sideboard” or is part of presenting your library for shuffling an implied “the cards in my deck box/I took out with my deck are my sideboard” which is why taking your sideboard out with your library can avoid penalties for having extra cards

I'm going to second James' statement, having just returned from Japan myself. Literally every game I played against a Japanese opponent (to distinguish from non-Japanese I met in Japan) started with a presentation of sideboards. Coming back to Canada after being in Japan, it was kind of shocking that people don't do it here more often.

@Gareth: In Japan, the way they do it is to fan out the sideboard, usually into 3 rows of 5, and allow the opponent to verify that there are indeed 3 rows of 5 cards before stacking up the sideboard and setting it to the side.

I agree how the Japanese do this is the best way.

But is it the only way?

Is there another way you'd like to propose? If AP gives NAP his sideboard, there is the possibility of NAP cheating by looking through AP's sideboard (sure, we can penalize NAP for doing this, but why bother going down that route unnecessarily at all?), so AP fanning out his sideboard for NAP to simply count, rather than handle himself, seems like the best method to me.