Please keep the forum protocol in mind when posting.

Knowledge Pool Scenarios » Post: Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

Oct. 2, 2012 07:00:50 PM

Josh Stansfield
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Foundry))

USA - Pacific West

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

Greetings! With the new IPG comes a new Knowledge Pool scenario! In case you missed the boat somehow, the new IPG (effective 10.1.2012) can be found here [wizards.com]. There's a chance the changes might be relevant… ;)

Today's scenario is Silver; this means today's interaction requires a more detailed knowledge of policy. It is designed for experienced L1s and L2s to answer, but it's not exclusive to them, so all of you are welcome to join in.

Here's the Scenario:
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/knowledgepool/2012/10/01/restoring-an-illusionary-trigger/ [blogs.magicjudges.org]

Andy and Neil are playing a match at a Standard GPT. Neil controls a Phantasmal Image that is a copy of Sun Titan, and no other creatures.

Andy passes turn, and Neil casts Restoration Angel during the end step. Neil untaps, draws, and casts Delver of Secrets. After it resolves, Andy realizes that the Angel's triggered ability was missed and calls a judge.

After determining that Neil did not intentionally miss his trigger, what is the appropriate infraction/penalty/fix, if any?

Oct. 2, 2012 07:09:43 PM

Callum Milne
Forum Moderator
Judge (Uncertified)

Canada - Western Provinces

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

This is a Missed Trigger, but since Restoration Angel's trigger is generally beneficial, missing it does not warrant a Warning for Neil. No penalty is warranted for Andy for not reminding his opponent of his trigger. Less than a turn has passed, so we ask Andy if he would like Neil's trigger to be placed on the stack. If he does, then Neil puts the trigger on the stack.

Since Neil did not control Delver at the time the ability was supposed to have triggered, he cannot select it as a target for the trigger; the only legal choice will be the Phantasmal Image. This will trigger the Image's sacrifice ability, and the game will proceed from there.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:12:45 PM

Ryan Brierley
Scorekeeper

United Kingdom, Ireland, and South Africa

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

What Callum said.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:16:40 PM

Patrick Vorbroker
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

First we have to decide whether Restoration Angel's trigger is beneficial or detrimental. This is done without context from the board state. I would rule that Restoration Angel's trigger is beneficial. Due to the fact that it is a beneficial trigger, Neil is not given a warning for GPE-Missed Trigger. Since we are within a turn of the missed trigger, it may be put on the bottom of the stack if Neil's opponent would like it to be. If it is, any targets of the ability must be targets that were legal when the ability should have gone on the stack. Assuming Andy chooses for the ability to go on the stack, the only legal target will be Phantasmal Image, which will have to be sacrificed whether or not Neil chooses to use the ability due to the Image's triggered ability.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:22:11 PM

David Miller
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Pacific Northwest

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

“…you MAY exile target non-angel creature…”

how is there a question here?

No infraction. No Penalty.

Edited David Miller (Oct. 2, 2012 07:23:43 PM)

Oct. 2, 2012 07:25:49 PM

Mitja Bosnic
Judge (Level 2 (Judge Academy))

Europe - East

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

I have some problem with ruling it as described above. If the Angel trigger is beneficial, then we're not giving a warning and per the new rules, would not step in to fix this if we noticed it and neither of the players did. That seems to miss the whole point of the new IPG.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:27:16 PM

Lorenzo Santomo
Judge (Level 2 (International Judge Program))

Italy and Malta

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

David, the problem is because even if you may exile the phantasmal image, the ability still targets it, so it has ti ne sacrificed

Oct. 2, 2012 07:27:51 PM

Patrick Vorbroker
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

David- We need to consider all missed may abilities an infraction for missed trigger, even if the trigger wouldn't do anything in the game state. This is highlighted by this situation, in which the may trigger WILL do something, because the only legal target for the ability is Phantasmal Image. In this case, the trigger is beneficial, so there's no penalty, but it's important that we still apply the proper fix.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:28:22 PM

David Tuell
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

Restoration Angel's trigger is an optional triggered ability (contains “may”). Therefore, the assumption is that the trigger resolved with Neil choosing not to use the ability. The ability is not placed on the stack, no penalty is issued, and play resumes from the end of the scenario.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:30:44 PM

Charles Harris
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Great Lakes

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

David, it is because phantasmal image would be the only legal target and
restoration angel always targets something. Whether you want to actually
use the ability is a may, but it still uses the stack and targets phantasmal
image causing it to be sacrificed. I believe that Callum and Patrick are
correct.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:32:33 PM

Patrick Vorbroker
Forum Moderator
Judge (Level 3 (Judge Academy)), Scorekeeper

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

Originally posted by David Tuell:

Restoration Angel's trigger is an optional triggered ability (contains “may”). Therefore, the assumption is that the trigger resolved with Neil choosing not to use the ability. The ability is not placed on the stack, no penalty is issued, and play resumes from the end of the scenario.

Other David- the issue with your answer is that while he can choose not to use the may trigger, it still goes on the stack and chooses a target if one is legal. Very important considering the presence of P. Image

Oct. 2, 2012 07:34:26 PM

Joshua Feingold
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

The option is not whether the ability should have triggered, but whether it has an effect upon resolution. As Image demonstrates, not all abilities actually care about what happens the Angel trigger's resolution. Some of them are only interested in the choices made when the ability was placed on the stack.

Since the Angel's trigger is generally beneficial, Neil does not receive a Warning. However, Andy may still have Neil place the ability on the stack and choose a target from among those that were legal when the ability should have triggered. (Which is to say, the Image, which will then need to be sacrificed.)

Oct. 2, 2012 07:34:38 PM

David Tuell
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

Thanks for the clarification, all. How I did not remember this “always target” sequence from watching my Kalastria Highborn triggers on MODO is beyond me ;)

Oct. 2, 2012 07:38:01 PM

Sam Williams
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

Assuming that we've already made clear that the trigger was missed unintentionally:

Is the trigger beneficial: Yes. Its seems straightforward that a “may” trigger must always be beneficial, otherwise the triggered ability would never be used.

Resolution: since its a beneficial trigger, the opponent gets the choice to put it on the stack. Since it was a “may”, it is assumed that the second option is not taken. The phantasmal image is sacrificed, since it was the only legal target.

Oct. 2, 2012 07:39:49 PM

Jordan Randolph
Judge (Uncertified)

USA - Midatlantic

Restoring an Illusionary Trigger - SILVER

.

Edited Jordan Randolph (Oct. 2, 2012 07:43:28 PM)